Heaven on High: That's it?

[Keridwyn]

Haven't run it yet but from the second hand accounts I have and the patch notes I read...it seems what I expected. I expected a new PoD with higher levels and different rewards with possibly a new mechanic or two thrown in. I seem to have gotten a new PoD for higher levels with different rewards and a new mechanic or two.

I mean I don't get the disappointment here. We all knew this was just a sequel, a follow up to what was clearly and obviously the single most popular side content in HW. In my circle of friends none of us expected any great changes to come from this particular formula. We never thought it was included in any of the statements about trying something new because in our eyes it was always just going to be PoD 2: Doman Boogaloo.

So for those who were expecting something can I ask why?

[Hestzhyen]

Haven't run it yet but from the second hand accounts I have and the patch notes I read...it seems what I expected. I expected a new PoD with higher levels and different rewards with possibly a new mechanic or two thrown in. I seem to have gotten a new PoD for higher levels with different rewards and a new mechanic or two.

I mean I don't get the disappointment here. We all knew this was just a sequel, a follow up to what was clearly and obviously the single most popular side content in HW. In my circle of friends none of us expected any great changes to come from this particular formula. We never thought it was included in any of the statements about trying something new because in our eyes it was always just going to be PoD 2: Doman Boogaloo.

So for those who were expecting something can I ask why?

For me personally (can't speak for anyone else here), I just hope for it. When SE teased it with footage we saw the new wide-open floor, magicite, new pomanders, and not much else. It's easy to see how people could mistake that as an appetizer for something bigger and better, especially if they're craving a different experience instead of more of the same. That's not to say HoH is bad... I appreciate them condensing the number of floors, and the addition of magicite and the new pomanders is welcome. But it feels like a version 1.1 instead of 2.0.

I knew we'd just be getting a lightly modified version of what we saw with PotD since we haven't gotten anything truly new since HW. SB has been all about repetition and playing it safe, which is disappointing as a long-time player.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I knew we'd just be getting a lightly modified version of what we saw with PotD since we haven't gotten anything truly new since HW. SB has been all about repetition and playing it safe, which is disappointing as a long-time player.

This is something that bothers me. With Heavensward, and especially ARR you could appreciate a conservative approach. The former was their first expansion; the latter a complete relaunch of the entire game. By now, that good well from the playerbase has began to wane. People are getting tired of the same stale formulas. What I find particularly irksome is how Stormblood essentially became "make everything easier." Doing so only worsened the lack of longevity already present. While I am not bored yet, it's certainly disconcerting for future expansions if all we're going to see is Garlemald with a purple coat of paint instead of red or blue.

[RiyahArp]

I don't think anyone was expecting them to reinvent the wheel, but they didn't change the formula except in bad ways. The casual experience is just bad. It's 3 floors, which on the first time you can beat in fifteen minutes each while looking for all the chests. The story is nowhere near as cool as Edda's was, the last boss is insultingly easy (and I don't complain stuff is too easy very often), and to top it all, the "summon a primal" thing lets you kill off an entire floor. You can literally just walk through and pick up the shinies. It feels like the meat is in the challenge floors, but they kept the "fixed party" requirement, which I don't think anyone liked that much. So if you are solo/casual, your whole experience now is probably going to be grinding 21-30 for +10/10 then trading it in for a grip to repeat.

The interior just looks like reused doma castle assets. It doesn't really change at all during the casual experience, where you went through different environments every 10 levels in potd. The open floors are pointless; they don't really add anything to gameplay, since its still the same kill to unlock and loot chests as the later levels. You have so many tools now to mitigate encounters and death I wonder how on earth they can make the challenge levels a challenge.

I mean, there's some really odd design choices here. I don't think people were complaining POTD was hard at all, from casual to challenge people, save for soloists. But it feels like they balanced everything around giving soloists a chance.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

Did you ignore HyoMin's response regarding this previously? Yoshida outright said their data showed the majority of people preferred floors 180-200, i.e., they fancied a more challenging experience. Therefore, everything on the casual side was streamlined to allow people access to the perceived fun aspect quicker. Floors 1-30 are essentially a leveling alternative and not intended for much else. Perhaps the only two potential issues is requiring a fixed party and not being able to continue with say, three people, if the fourth bails unexpectedly.

That all said, you complain constantly about how the game can't get any harder, or that Shinryu, Tsukiyomi, Ridorado, Rabnastre and etc are all too difficult. Well, the devs listened. You now have something utterly mindless that may take more effort to fail than succeed. That's what happens when you keep complaining everything is hard. It gets insulting easy.

[RiyahArp]

Did you ignore HyoMin's response regarding this previously? Yoshida outright said their data showed the majority of people preferred floors 180-200, i.e., they fancied a more challenging experience.

It would take four people staticing four hours without a single wipe to get to those floors in the past. You absolutely need a traditional party setup. Those floors are purely for the challenge; they are useless for leveling aetherpool weapons, for leveling classes, for farming tomes. They are useful only if you want to farm chest drops and get completion party or solo, and the former is actively discouraged due to the difficulty of the floors and mimics being very potent. I really, really would like to see his data on that, because virtually every incentive for POTD has nothing to do with 180-200, and the incentives drop off completely with 101+.

You know, I think Yoshi must just quiz the JP equivalent of bluegarter or something whenever he wants data, because saying more people liked potd 180 is liek saying more people like savage than leveling roulette. And I don't really see anyone complainign it was too hard, since all the hard stuff was elective and didn't really give any better of the core rewards casuals used it for,. Only soloists did, and to be blunt it is impossible to balance for solo content in there.

I don't want casual content to get much harder. That doesn't mean it needs to get easier. I don't want to wake up some day and have to fight susano ex as the next story boss. I don't want to have to be locked into doing all roulettes as my healer because I'd wipe the party if I wanted to practice a dps im rusty with.The difficulty as is is pretty good, with 24 man mechanics being the limit of casual content. I usually push back because people say everything is so easy it must get harder, or that harder is needed. Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

[HyoMinPark]

HoH is about what I expected. I expected a PotD reskin since the developers seem to be allergic to trying new things. The changes that were made, I have a few mixed feelings:

+ The primal pomanders are super cool. I’m sad that we wiped before we could make good use of our Odin one, which is apparently pretty powerful.
+ The large 4x3 rooms are really cool.
+ I love the aesthetic, especially past Floor 41 when it starts to change.
+ Some of the new mobs that were implemented are not a joke. Maybe it’s because our aetherpool was relatively low, but it was refreshing to see that, with some, they would still one-shot careless tanks or DPS. Definitely made for a fun experience and hilarious moments in voice chat.
+ Less fluff floors before the challenge floors is always a plus.
+ Minions in the Accursed Hoard sacks are a plus, because some I could never get from their respective dungeons (looking at you, Shaggy Shoat!!), so I’m glad I have a different shot at them.
+ The hairstyle.
+ I don’t mind the new pomanders (Concealment is pretty cool, and so is Frailty), and having so many powerful ones allows for formulating a good strategy for making the last 10-20 floors less dangers, however...

- I miss my Rage Pomanders. :c
- I wish that the Petrification pomanders lasted a bit longer than 30 seconds.
- Please get rid of the damn fireworks in the loot sacks. 4/5 Gold sacks and they were damn fireworks!

—

It would take four people staticing four hours without a single wipe to get to those floors in the past.

People also constantly complained that Floors 51-100 were an unnecessary snoozefest to get to Floor 101, and even then the challenge didn’t start until 151 at the minimum. That’s 100 more floors of easy content just to get to the challenge, which is what people wanted. They wanted less fluff, and SE delivered—now you can start at Floor 21 for Floor 100 parties, story mode is only 30 floors as opposed to 100, and there are just less floors overall (though I never had any issues with 100 floors past the story mode—my complaints lied only with Floors 51-100 being a prerequisite each time, since Floors 100-150 were easy enough to gather enough pomanders to last for 151-200). So, with regards to these things, the developers actually listened to some of the feedback players gave them. They may not have listened to all of it, but they still listened and at least implemented some.

I’ve only been to Floor 50 of HoH myself, but I’ve heard that now the more difficult mobs start at Floor 51+ 30 floors after you start; much better than Floor 151 (or Floor 181, more like it) after 100 (130) floors.

You absolutely need a traditional party setup. Those floors are purely for the challenge; they are useless for leveling aetherpool weapons, for leveling classes, for farming tomes.

Not absolutely, since people duo’d PotD. Duoing HoH is entirely possible, albeit you will want high aetherpool to serve as a cushion, and you will have to be more cautious. They also give aetherpool and tomes for people that would rather do something a bit less boring than spam HoH 21-30 over and over again a la PotD 51-60. Sure they aren’t “practical” for farming either, but you still get them, so it’s not like they aren’t without rewards. They also give experience every 10 floors, just like 101+ did for sub-level 60 jobs.

They are useful only if you want to farm chest drops and get completion party or solo, and the former is actively discouraged due to the difficulty of the floors and mimics being very potent.

The difficulty is to be expected and is part of the design, so it appears to be working just as intended. And you can only farm platinum sacks on Floors 61+, so if your goal is to farm goodies from the Platinum sacks, the only way is to go all the way, or at least to 61-70. Silver and Gold sacks don’t contain Platinum prizes.

I really, really would like to see his data on that, because virtually every incentive for POTD has nothing to do with 180-200, and the incentives drop off completely with 101+.

You know, I think Yoshi must just quiz the JP equivalent of bluegarter or something whenever he wants data, because saying more people liked potd 180 is liek saying more people like savage than leveling roulette.

I mean, the developers can see how many people run the higher floors, and see how many have the Floor 200 achievements, how many repeat the runs, and how many times they do so. They have myriads more data than a forum would. So unless you want to say that Yoshida was being disingenuous with his statement about Floors 181-200, your argument here holds no purpose other than to, once again, sling mud on something that doesn’t seem to fit your rhetoric.

And I don't really see anyone complainign it was too hard, since all the hard stuff was elective and didn't really give any better of the core rewards casuals used it for,. Only soloists did, and to be blunt it is impossible to balance for solo content in there.

Where was anyone saying that people complained Floor 200 runs of PotD were too hard? At most they said they were too tedious because of the 51-100/51-151 slog. Bourne’s comment was about how you constantly state that battle content in general in this game is too hard, and should always be easy, not that people were complaining about the difficulty of PotD.

I don't want casual content to get much harder. That doesn't mean it needs to get easier. I don't want to wake up some day and have to fight susano ex as the next story boss. I don't want to have to be locked into doing all roulettes as my healer because I'd wipe the party if I wanted to practice a dps im rusty with.The difficulty as is is pretty good, with 24 man mechanics being the limit of casual content. I usually push back because people say everything is so easy it must get harder, or that harder is needed. Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

We know you don’t want it to get harder. But since having any sort of middle ground is also impossible when you constantly argue in extremes, it seems that you’ll have to just deal with HoH story floors (which is considered casual content) being on the easy extreme. When you don’t allow for any middle ground, you either have one side or the other.

Everything in this game is getting progressively easier. Mechanics in early dungeons can be blatantly ignored, which teach bad habits for later dungeons and 8-man trials. Aside from the fact that they’re nerfed by a combination of developer nerfs, overgearing, and nerfs that take place when a new expansion is released (e.g., all HW dungeons were nerfed when SB released). But even barring all of those, the mechanics aren’t punishing enough save for a few instances to mandate that people actually pay attention to them and perform them successfully. And, in those few instances, levels of conditioning that taught them “I can cheese/ignore this, no biggie” cause them to get mad when something like Nidhogg, Shinryu, or Tsukuyomi suddenly appear and cause them to realize “RAWR I can’t actually cheese/ignore this”.

Asking for more difficult 4-man content, or for, heaven forbid, mechanics to actually matter in things like dungeons or even normal mode trials, especially ones at max level doesn’t mean that things need to be “Savage-level”. I really hope you learn to eventually stop arguing in such extremes. Mechanics can still have an impact in content that is less difficult than Savage.

And if you’re so concerned about wiping a dungeon party on a DPS job, then the solution is simple: practice and practice frequently. Harder content doesn’t stop you from doing that.

Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

I don’t know how many times I can say it, but almost all of Shinryu’s mechanics you see in story mode have all been seen in story mode content before. Tidal Wave? Leviathan. Earthen Fury? Titan. Hellfire? Ifrit. Judgment Bolt? Ramuh. Diamond Dust? Shiva. The only one you can make a semblance of an argument for is Ahk Morn, which, while present in Final Steps of Faith, it borrows from T13 in the way you handle it (immunity or tanks share).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It would take four people staticing four hours without a single wipe to get to those floors in the past. You absolutely need a traditional party setup. Those floors are purely for the challenge; they are useless for leveling aetherpool weapons, for leveling classes, for farming tomes. They are useful only if you want to farm chest drops and get completion party or solo, and the former is actively discouraged due to the difficulty of the floors and mimics being very potent. I really, really would like to see his data on that, because virtually every incentive for POTD has nothing to do with 180-200, and the incentives drop off completely with 101+.

You know, I think Yoshi must just quiz the JP equivalent of bluegarter or something whenever he wants data, because saying more people liked potd 180 is liek saying more people like savage than leveling roulette. And I don't really see anyone complainign it was too hard, since all the hard stuff was elective and didn't really give any better of the core rewards casuals used it for,. Only soloists did, and to be blunt it is impossible to balance for solo content in there.

I don't want casual content to get much harder. That doesn't mean it needs to get easier. I don't want to wake up some day and have to fight susano ex as the next story boss. I don't want to have to be locked into doing all roulettes as my healer because I'd wipe the party if I wanted to practice a dps im rusty with.The difficulty as is is pretty good, with 24 man mechanics being the limit of casual content. I usually push back because people say everything is so easy it must get harder, or that harder is needed. Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

Actually, you didn't. Plenty of people did triple DPS and healer. Some gambled without a healer and did double tank or some other variation. Was it safer with a traditional party setup? Of course. Likewise, the higher floors aren't that bad once you have a decent aetherpool. Having done up to floor 50 with only 35/24, we were only just beginning to struggle. Granted, we had to pull one or two mobs only and I stayed in tank stance. Now imagine those floors with 99/99.

Or just maybe, maybe not everyone wants something utterly brain dead like much of casual content has become. Bear in mind, just because numerous 200 runs resulted in failure doesn't mean the players disliked it. The primary complain about 200 runs with the slog it took blitzing through floors 51-120ish.

Except casual isn't hard. Shinryu and Tsukiyomi are not difficult, they simply demand you pay attention. Asking they become easier results in stuff like 1-30 HoH because there simply isn't anywhere else to go. No one is saying Susano EX should replace his story mode equivalent, but that he shouldn't be a cakewalk either. Once again, you argues in extremes. All people want is something that requires more than pressing 1-2-3. Hence why higher floors of PotD were more popular. Instead of standing in Kefka's fake Blizzard because I couldn't be bothered to care about a vul stack that does nothing, I'm outright disengaging because those Gorilla slaps hurt. I actually feel like a tank being forced into tank stance and rotating CDs despite pulling only a couple things compared to pulling entire rooms.

You assume the raiders don't understand because you ignore counterpoints. I have cited The Vault as a good dungeon example numerous times yet you continuously prattle on about "omg savage dungeons!!!" Is The Vault Savage tier? I certainly hope not.

Protip to Yoshi-P and the Dev Team: If you're gonna make new Deep Dungeons per expansion, launch them in the first major patch after a new expansion (ex: 2.1, 3.1, 4.1, etc) instead of waiting an entire year later and in midway into a expansion cycle to drop this crap onto the playerbase. Makes better sense and I'm not even a game or content designer, just a player. If a regular casual player like me can think of something this simple and you guys can't, that's very telling. Just saiyan.

While I agree, let's be honest here. How often are you queuing for those dungeons if HoH released in 4.0? They waited a year so people wouldn't exclusively use HoH as their leveling source and abandon everything else.

[TaleraRistain]

Did you ignore HyoMin's response regarding this previously? Yoshida outright said their data showed the majority of people preferred floors 180-200, i.e., they fancied a more challenging experience.

I'm sorry, I'm calling bullshit on this. If he only asked those who had actually gotten here, then yes, of course it's going to look like players prefer it. I want to see his numbers and just what part of the population was queried.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm sorry, I'm calling bullshit on this. If he only asked those who had actually gotten here, then yes, of course it's going to look like players prefer it. I want to see his numbers and just what part of the population was queried.

Copying this from another post; there may not be any numbers, but that doesn’t mean that Yoshida would be disingenuous either—

Considering the sheer amount of Floor 200 parties I saw on Cactuar not only in Heavensward but in Stormblood after they enabled cross-server functions for Floor 200 runs (and at that point, they were across Aether), I disagree. Sure that’s anecdotal...however—if people didn’t do the content, why would the developers mention they’re making floors 31 to 100 of Heaven on High difficult because players enjoyed the more difficult floors of PotD more than the easier floors? Those words came from Yoshida himself.

With the original Deep Dungeon, Palace of the Dead, we released 200 floors over two patches. However our feedback indicates that outside of leveling other jobs, players only really enjoyed the challenge of floors 180 to 200. With Heaven on High the leveling and story portion will end at floor 30, but floors 31 to 100 should feel closer to 180 to 200. Expect that kind of challenge from 31 to 100 and we hope the players enjoy accessing this content a little sooner.

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...1A/mobilebasic

Nothing in his statement claims he was querying any specific part of the playerbase, but the playerbase as a whole—so anyone looking to say that it was “only the raiders” that enjoyed have no argument there. Which is basically what Riyah always says—the only players that enjoy hard content are Savage raiders, when PotD Floor 200 proves otherwise (as opposed to other anecdotal stories).