Sexual harassment

[MoroMurasaki]

@MoroMurasaki: Yes that is still at least fine but I would still look out for each case and see if that person can take it right now or not. Sometimes its maybe better to only support them and maybe talk with them about this later, when they are less emotional impacted by this. People just need to remember that not everyone will take everything the same way and for some this might be too much.

I think this is the core of our disagreement - I don't believe in sugarcoating the truth when it comes to something this important. Facts don't care about your feelings and the fact of the matter is if you engage in behavior like what has come out of the TMP story (specifically sending nude photos or video to someone else, much less someome you've never even met) you have made a huge mistake even if nothing bad comes of it.

If we suspend disbelief and only listen to their evidence it paints a picture of these women allowing themselves to be bullied and extorted over a spot in a Free Company or at a glorified fansite/blog. No matter how despicable one finds the actions of (the bad guy whos name we can't say) if you can step back and look at things objectively you will see he would have been completely neutered if the women he targeted stood up for themselves at the first signs of abuse.

For what feels like the hundredth time I find myself reiterating that if (hes sorta like Voldemort in that way) did everything he was accused of he is a disgusting person and I never want anything to do with him; none of that changes the fact that he is still out there though and is likely not the only of his kind. Hell, he got caught! He probably isn't even the cleverest person in the game doing these things. We can sit here and focus on comforting a few people who made some poor choices or we can learn from this experience and hopefully make it harder for him or predators like him to prey on players in the future. I think the choice is obvious.

Personal accountability. I don't know why that is such a taboo concept and I feel like it can never be stressed enough. No one is ever "unable to handle" being told they screwed up and coddling them only sets them up to face the same things again in the future. That isn't what I wanted after my sexual assault and I doubt it's what the TMP victims want either.

Careful, this stuff is too politically incorrect for this forum to handle. But before that, can you pass me the great commune tea, by the whey?

Everything is too politically incorrect for these forums it seems...

[Alleo]

I think this is the core of our disagreement - I don't believe in sugarcoating the truth when it comes to something this important. Facts don't care about your feelings and the fact of the matter is if you engage in behavior like what has come out of the TMP story (specifically sending nude photos or video to someone else, much less someome you've never even met) you have made a huge mistake even if nothing bad comes of it.

Because often those vicitms are already at a bad place in their life before this happens, trust a person for months, do one mistake (like you only really need to sent one picture) and then are confronted with other people they trusted that said that this is just drama and they should just take it, have the abuser say to them that he/she might kill himself if they go and thanks to all the actions over time they might not have many people left that they can confine into. All of this while already suffering from depression and other attacks. IMO it is not good to go to them and start to blame them for it too. You dont need to sugarcoat anything, you simply just need to be there for them and if that all is over, you can still talk about the mistakes. But imo not when the person is already at their worst place.

Also again its always easy from the outside and as a hindsight to point out the bad stuff. But those people often dont even notice these things because they trust the person and because the person tries everything to have their trust.

We should not try to and say they are 100% to blame, but is the message we want to send to people is that there was nothing they could have done that could have prevented the situation?

We can go around and try to teach those that did not have anything happen to them, how to avoid it. Give them the signs that could help them identify it and we could also reach out our hand and say that people can come to us if they need advise and not react like its just drama and funny. That would help beforehand but will never 100% be secure. But what does it help the person that already went through this? They have already learned the hard way how it happened and its like someone touching fire. Once you did that, you will probably never do that again and also know much better than any other person why it happened. (Because there is no one true way to solve this, since people are so different.) So that person imo already knows quite good what happened, what they did do wrong and will not want to go through that again. Thus the talk about "how you should not get into that situation" is first already too late and probably just talking about stuff that they know already. Thus imo its better to just give them a helping hand, because the time afterwards is probably one of the hardest. And if that is all done and they are at a better health, you could still talk to them if they want to.

[MoroMurasaki]

Because often those vicitms are already at a bad place in their life before this happens, trust a person for months, do one mistake (like you only really need to sent one picture) and then are confronted with other people they trusted that said that this is just drama and they should just take it, have the abuser say to them that he/she might kill himself if they go and thanks to all the actions over time they might not have many people left that they can confine into. All of this while already suffering from depression and other attacks. IMO it is not good to go to them and start to blame them for it too. You dont need to sugarcoat anything, you simply just need to be there for them and if that all is over, you can still talk about the mistakes. But imo not when the person is already at their worst place.

Also again its always easy from the outside and as a hindsight to point out the bad stuff. But those people often dont even notice these things because they trust the person and because the person tries everything to have their trust.

I don't mean to be dismissive but none of what you said here has literally any bearing on what we're talking about.

Support and criticism are not mutually exclusive, in fact I would say the best support is almost always accompanied by some constructive criticism. Hearing "I love you" from someone who you likely already know cares about you is of minimal consequence in the long run. I'm not ignoring that people still need that kind of reassurance in the moments following a traumatic experience, simply stating that it isn't the people offering them who are giving the best or most useful support.

You seem to have this misconception that a victim of abuse accepting responsibility for their own safety somehow also adds blame to them or lessens the burden of blame on the abuser. The abuser is still 100% to blame for the abuse, it would not happen without them. Asking the victim to examine their actions and understand mistakes that they made does not mean you don't understand that.

Since you seem so focused on people being in such a delicare state of mental health after such an experience I ask you this as well - they are very vulnerable at that point, right? So if everyone just smothers them with love and affection and they don't understand that they've done something wrong what's to stop the same situation from arising again immediately after? Those who want to take advantage of others flock to emotionally unstable people.

I watched this happen to my mom as a kid - we were in a domestic violence shelter from one boyfriend of hers and she would meet a guy, move out into his house and repeat. Instead of focusing on herself all she seemed to get ingrained in her mind was that men are bad, not that perhaps she wasn't properly vetting the men she chose to immediately enter committed relationships with and rely on. No one called her on her mistakes until the third go around and it was me at 13 years old.

People learning from their mistakes is often the only bit of good to come out of any bad situation and they can't be left to their own devices for that to work. Introspection is not a natural state of being, especially not the sort that examines personal error after an already traumatic experience. Your brain wants to insulate you from the bad thoughts naturally, this is why victims of forcible rape or extreme physical trauma often don't have clear memory of the incedents. All of this contributes to the need to force that uncomfortable self examination, especially when it can be most impactful.

[BillyKaplan]

Support and criticism are not mutually exclusive, in fact I would say the best support is almost always accompanied by some constructive criticism.

Something we all seem to agree on?

You dont need to sugarcoat anything, you simply just need to be there for them and if that all is over, you can still talk about the mistakes. But imo not when the person is already at their worst place.

Alleo didn't say not to criticize, nor did they say to neglect retrospection. They're stressing the need to take into consideration the timing.

You seem to have this misconception that a victim of abuse accepting responsibility for their own safety somehow also adds blame to them or lessens the burden of blame on the abuser. The abuser is still 100% to blame for the abuse, it would not happen without them. Asking the victim to examine their actions and understand mistakes that they made does not mean you don't understand that.

But is the victim in a state of mind where they can understand that? Or is it too soon in their healing progress, that it will be taken the wrong way? That's also something to take into consideration that doesn't negate either approach.

they don't understand that they've done something wrong

Assumption. Again, subjective depending on case. You're generalizing. Not all victims will be blind to their own mistakes and need someone on the outside to enlighten them.

[Tiaque]

I had my character followed and stalked by a few girls in the past. Got to a point I started wearing a full enclosed helmet. Then FC members and raid static would always ask what I looked like under the helmet.

Eventually I just learned to ignore the stalkers. They wanna parade around in bikinis following me as I do overworld stuff and do embrace and blowkiss emotes its fine. I pretend its just the wind playing tricks.

[AriaFairchild]

Assumption. Again, subjective depending on case. You're generalizing. Not all victims will be blind to their own mistakes and need someone on the outside to enlighten them.

Yea, but you never know until you touch upon it with them tho, or they take the initiative to tell you. We can't read minds.

Also, the part you quoted is part of a conjunction, it's all dandy and good if you smother them with love and they understand what they've done. What's not ok is that you smother them with love AND they don't understand that they've done something wrong.

[BillyKaplan]

Yea, but you never know until you touch upon it with them tho, or they take the initiative to tell you. We can't read minds.

No, we can't read minds, but the question then becomes how do you approach the subject given this limitation. Do you show a modicum of sensitivity, or do you just bulldoze in on there and use that as an excuse? Hopefully, if you approach a victim of assault in this context, you have some familiarity with them, so while you don't know for sure, you have a good grasp of where to go based on past experience. Alternatively, you're a trained professional who will also know what to do in case you step on a landmine.
What you just said can come off as "well SOME of them MIGHT need to hear it, so let's just tell EVERYONE", which is a bad approach. This thread has deteriorated into absolutes.

Also, the part you quoted is part of a conjunction, it's all dandy and good if you smother them with love and they understand what they've done. What's not ok is that you smother them with love AND they don't understand that they've done something wrong.

And we all agree, so I don't see why you brought it up. What I'm trying to get across is that there's a time and place for that sort of thing, and bringing it up in the wrong way in the wrong time can sooner hurt the victim farther rather than help them recover. Mind you, that is not the same thing as 'never talk to them about lessons they can learn from this'. Again, falling back to absolutes.

[AriaFairchild]

And we all agree, so I don't see why you brought it up. What I'm trying to get across is that there's a time and place for that sort of thing, and bringing it up in the wrong way in the wrong time can sooner hurt the victim farther rather than help them recover. Mind you, that is not the same thing as 'never talk to them about lessons they can learn from this'. Again, falling back to absolutes.

Ah, what I failed to understand is that you said Moro was assuming and generalizing when they did no such thing. They were giving a very specific situation that requires 2 conditions to be met, under a hypothetical question ("if"):

1. everyone just smothers them with love and affection
2. they don't understand that they've done something wrong

[Alleo]

Something we all seem to agree on?



Alleo didn't say not to criticize, nor did they say to neglect retrospection. They're stressing the need to take into consideration the timing.



But is the victim in a state of mind where they can understand that? Or is it too soon in their healing progress, that it will be taken the wrong way? That's also something to take into consideration that doesn't negate either approach.

Thats exactly my point thank you. I am not saying that people should never talk about this but that depending on the person it could be bad to do this right afterwards. Some need time to work it out themselves and I am quite sure that most of them also understand what happened. And if someone talks about something that might be traumatic this should be done with professional help, because wrong words can just make it even worse.

Also who has the right to talk to them? Parents that might not have had much to do with their child thus does not even know them that good? Friends? Siblings? So if someone comes to you and want advise, fine give it to them but if they only talk about what happened, listen first and maybe just only do that. Because not everyone needs advice right now. (Was a great tip of my own therapist. If its a complicated topic ask them if you can give them your opinion or help and only when they say yes, give it to them.)

Just one example: Once I was waiting for another meeting and an old woman was sitting with me. She started to attack me verbally for no reason at all and started to repeat questions. (Telling me how I was doing so wrong by being here that late) I realized that she might have Alzheimer and later when I talked to my therapist, he said that she did but after I told him what happened (that did not affect me because I knew that there must be something wrong with her) he said that she wont be allowed to come here again. Because not everyone of his patients is like me and understands that her words are not true and might fall back in their progression. That is how unstable people can be depending on their mental health.

And we know that quite some of the victims also suffered from depression and things like that. So yes normally people might not take critisim or talk negatively but what if they do? What if they are right now so unstable that they start to blame themselves? Believing that it was somehow their fault even if you didnt mean it that way? Suddenly the mental health is even worse.

I think that someone that suffered from this should get professional help and then if they are stable enough and want to talk about it, you can still do it, but now with someone that can take it the right way. (And I know what I am talking about. If you are over something and look back you can be surprised about yourself too. Surprised how easily someone was able to get you highly emotional and in a paniced state)

Again, I am not saying that everyone is like that but to be cautious by saying that one should always do this and that. Sometimes or maybe even often, you need careful hands to catch them and then if they are standing again you can talk about this.