Sexual harassment

[Anatha]

Again, and I can't stress this enough, you are not only not an adult at 18, you're not even close.
Your judgement is definitively unsound. You're brain has yet to fully mature and with that immature state comes compromised judgment, logic, and impulse faculties.

You are especially vulnerable to manipulation at that stage of life, as not only are you immature neurologically speaking, your brain is also under hormonal assault, making things even more tempestuous.

You can't know how you'd have reacted, you can't hypothesize about this. That girl went through it. You did not.

Have some goddamn compassion.

[AriaFairchild]

Have some goddamn compassion.

I'll show her compassion, after chastising her for her immaturity/foolishness. You're not magically absolved of your responsibilities to your own damn self just because you're at that "tender" age. That's not how you teach kids to be responsible.

[Melichoir]

I typically ignore arguments that resort to "Have compassion!"

Because the inference is that we dont.

You know whats compassionate? Slapping someone over the head when they do something stupid, so you teach them the lesson not to do that thing again. Its more important to ensure you teach someone they screwed up adn to avoid doing it again, than to shout about "Oh, theyre just young and foolish and didnt know better!" The former makes them more aware and better prepped to deal with things in the future. The latter absolves them of responsibility, denying them the opportunity to learn from their mistake by brushing said mistake aside as a "foolish thing" outside their control.

[Corfish]

Snip

There's no point in admonishing them, because if you had ever actually talked to a survivor you would see they blame themselves first. Nothing you say can admonish them more than they have already done so themselves. They already hate themselves for falling into that trap, this is why therapy is so important, to teach them it ISN'T their fault first, because you shouldn't victim blame.

Like... imagine someone's baby getting kidnapped, and you go "Whelp, should've locked the window huh? Sorrt, just some tough love!" That parent probably already wants to die, and stating the obvious isn't helping.

[Melichoir]

snip

Maybe I was a bit blunt and tactless in the headslap, but I wasnt saying "Tough love, sucks to suck!" and not give support or help. I was attempting to illustrate that yeah, you need to be ensuring when people make mistakes that they know the lesson. Cause Trauma, often enough, distorts peoples perceptions of the situation, and can leave people fixating on the wrong aspects.


This is not only why people who get help dont just get told "Its all better and its not your fault," but help people unpack the entirety of the situation. To not only understand yeah, theyre a victim of something, but also what actually lead to the situation. Getting to that isnt easy, cause you cant just say "Welp, this is why. Youre a dummy." Getting htem to look at something and be like "Ok, this was a bad judgement call, and heres why I made that call, and what can I do with it going forward" is what is necessary. That doesnt happen overnight or instantly, Nor is it getting the person to say "Its all my fault. " Its a tricky dance between understanding what lead to what and self blame. Its the appropriate way to go rather than the current option I see far to often. The "You did nothing wrong, youre a victim, you dont have to change or evaluate your actions, the world needs to change so you dont have to."

Its a fairy tale way of looking at the world that relieves all responsibility from the victim. They dont have to learn, or change, or address something. No, its the world who has to be nicer. This doesnt help victims or potential victims.

[Miyha]

Its a fairy tale way of looking at the world that relieves all responsibility from the victim. They dont have to learn, or change, or address something. No, its the world who has to be nicer. This doesnt help victims or potential victims.

Just quoting this because it really is something profound that I only realized after the extensive trauma therapy I've had to go through, not just from the relationship I mentioned above.

To supplement that, you'll notice a pattern where a lot of people who get taken advantage of by predators like the aforementioned "prominent community figure" also have their own mental health struggles and other issues that make them prime targets. They have a lot of faults, and it's these faults that make them easy targets for abuse and manipulation. Sometimes one doesn't even realize it's a problem until they're put into the scenario of a relationship like that, experience that kind of trauma, then are plopped into trauma therapy; I promise you, your therapist will (or should, if they're doing their job correctly) make you own your sh*t and work on cleaning up your side of the fence as a major part of recovery.

It's not anyone's fault when they're victims of abuse; but they do have to take a step back, look at why they got themselves into that situation, why they stayed, and what they can do differently to avoid similar instances in the future. With the insight they gain, perhaps they could help prevent someone else's suffering as well. I know that's what I try to do.

[Solarra]

...kids need to come to realize that their decisions affect other people as well, it's not just about them. What about their parents, their friends, their relatives who actually care about them?

Wow! you seem to be taking victim-blaming to a whole new level here. So, are you really saying that if someone I care about gets abused, I not only get to admonish their poor decision-making but I can also cry, 'poor me!' because their being hurt is distressing for me!?!
I think such a reaction would be insensitive, self-obsessed and entirely inappropriate. Shaming someone because they have been abused is not only unfair, it's pretty abusive in itself.
The worst thing is, this lets the abuser off the hook. You are focusing entirely on the victim and what you think they did wrong. Implying people are just stupid if they let harassment or abuse happen to them (and now selfish too, because of the distress it could cause their friends and family) helps nobody apart from those who harass and abuse. Making excuses for these people simply allows them to continue their behaviour unchecked.

[AriaFairchild]

Wow! you seem to be taking victim-blaming to a whole new level here. So, are you really saying that if someone I care about gets abused, I not only get to admonish their poor decision-making but I can also cry, 'poor me!' because their being hurt is distressing for me!?!
I think such a reaction would be insensitive, self-obsessed and entirely inappropriate. Shaming someone because they have been abused is not only unfair, it's pretty abusive in itself.
The worst thing is, this lets the abuser off the hook. You are focusing entirely on the victim and what you think they did wrong. Implying people are just stupid if they let harassment or abuse happen to them (and now selfish too, because of the distress it could cause their friends and family) helps nobody apart from those who harass and abuse. Making excuses for these people simply allows them to continue their behaviour unchecked.

Victim blaming seems to be everyone's favorite buzzword nowadays, because condemning the abuser and calling out the victim for their poor decisions are not mutually exclusive. The abuser must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, however, the victim needs to be reminded of their decision making.

You are just being overtly dramatic, nobody is crying "poor me" here, nobody is letting the abuser off the hook here. If you think telling your kid they are being irresponsible is being insensitive, and that their irresponsibility is affecting others, you are doing a poor job raising children. Children don't exist in a vacuum, they need to grow up to be responsible adults too and to make wise decisions too. Part of maturity is realizing that your actions affect others, and by not letting them reflecting on that perspective, they are going to make foolish decisions again.

[Solarra]

If you think telling your kid they are being irresponsible is being insensitive, and that their irresponsibility is affecting others, you are doing a poor job raising children.

*Jawdrop* You're taking ad-hominem to a new level, too.

My point was that if a younger member of your family is abused and all you can offer is a lecture on how irresponsible they were to let it happen and how it's affecting you then you are basically throwing yourself a 'pity party' and making their problems all about yourself. A bit of support and practical help might be more appropriate.

If you had read my earlier posts in this thread you would have seen that I am absolutely in favour of giving people the knowledge and tools to minimize their risk of being harassed and to cope with it if it happens.
However, putting all the emphasis on 'how not to be a victim' does send out the message to potential abusers that if a person doesn't respond to them in a certain manner then anything they do is at least partly excused.

[AriaFairchild]

If you had read my earlier posts in this thread

all you can offer is a lecture on how irresponsible they were to let it happen and how it's affecting you then you are basically throwing yourself a 'pity party' and making their problems all about yourself

*Jawdrop* You're taking tunnel-visioning to a new level.

I'll show her compassion, after chastising her for her immaturity/foolishness.

Take your own advice man. You are the only one who zeroed in on the 'pity party' aspect, when no one did such thing. All that I had said is that the kid needs to know how its action had affected others, and that showing compassion is a given in this case.

For example:

"You know what, Junior, what you did was very foolish. You left without letting me or your mom know. You made us worried sick about you. Now that you are here, you are safe. That's all that matter. But promise us to always tell mom and dad whenever you go, alright? We love you more than anything in this world."

cue jaw drop sound for dramatic effect

How can this example be used when someone was sexual harassed? Your example sounds more like a young child that went too far away from their parents, not someone that was abused or sexual attacked. Also what would you say to someone that went through that on the internet? For something that went on for months?

This is just used to illustrate that reprimanding (if the person did actually do something stupid) and showing love can happen at the same time. For a particular case, you can phrase it in a similar spirit. And also:

And 18 years is still a child. You don't become an adult until your early to mid twenties. Just because the state might consider you an adult for the purposes of the judiciary, it by no means indicates that you are an adult where it really matters. Neuroscience is the authority on this, not arbitrary legal thresholds.

There's this consensus that 18 is still a child, so I am doing exactly that, treating them like a child. In this particular case, the child did just that "went too far away from their parents" without telling the parents even.