Sexual harassment

[BluntGamerChick]

I'm a transplant from WOW whose husband insisted i change to FF14. As a Female gamer i have had my share of Harassment. Once confirmed a female player you tend to be a target. In fact i had a stalking situation that was scary and took a long time to resolve and was a big reason why i stopped playing MMO's for awhile. There are a lot of pervs emboldened to behave in ways they never would in real life because ultimately they are all cowards and losers looking to satisfy their perversion. Regardless of the games warnings, there is no excuse or rational for sexual harassment. Any statements advocating such behavior i have to assume is made by like minded people who are themselves perverse and equally disgusting. To those victims of such harassment I say, try not to let it get to you. Report the problem, block the person and just remember that they are pathetic losers who cant get it in the real world so they have to try and get their jollies in-game.

[Okamimaru]

Ok let's reign it in a little.... save the bickering for the parser debate threads... focus on topic

[Doozer]

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

[Melichoir]

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

We're taking umbridge with some of your positions.

I agree with this though. If theres evidence, then yeah, that is something to be addressed. Just bear in mind its case by case.

[Doozer]

We're taking umbridge with some of your positions.

Yeah, like how I condone genocide or some shit because I said some opinions shouldn't be allowed.

[MoroMurasaki]

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

There are very few people in this thread that have argued against the idea of appropriate action being taken against players who sexually harrass others. The issue people bring up with the TMP case is the lack of anything SE would consider evidence as, to my knowledge, there is little to no ingame chat logs supporting the victims. If these women want to go to the police with their grievances that's another matter entirely but as they stand right now I don't feel like SE has what they need to enact any sort of punishment without stepping outside their own guidelines.

To be very clear, since apparently not immediately blindly agreeing with anyone who accuses someone of sexual hareassment has connotations beyond desiring evidence, I don't feel like sexual harrassment is okay. It was a contributing factor for me in my decision to leave ESO because at the time I played they only had voice chat so there really wasn't an option to hide my gender. I think those who sexually harrass others are generally just crappy people... but I still can't get behind the idea that it is okay to blindly believe anyone who cries wolf.

Yeah, like how I condone genocide or some shit because I said some opinions shouldn't be allowed.

I didn't suggest you condoned genocide, at the risk of bringing up posts that appear to have been deleted I suggested that you conflated the issues that arise from allowing opinions such as "question everything, don't automatically believe anyone who claims to be the victim of abuse" with those that could be seen in response to talk of genocide being acceptable.

Saying "don't automatically believe everyone who makes an abuse allegation" leads to due process and the gathering of evidence before potentially ruining someone's life. Saying "genocide is okay" can lead to... genocide. The consequences there are not even comperable which is why your defense of "silence this opinion I don't like because some other opinions can be really harmful" doesn't fly.

[Rogatum]

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

[SilverObi]

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

Careful with that kinda logic, it makes too much sense. People who want to harm others in any way, shape, or form most likely already know what they're doing is wrong. No amount of teaching will prevent people with ill intent from acting on their designs. We can however teach people how best to defend themselves to prevent becoming another statistic.

And all we can do as people when someone does feel harassed or abused is listen to their situation and gather all the information to make the best choice for the current issue. Obviously this varies a lot depending on the severity of the accusation

[Solarra]

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

I'd say the best approach would be to hit this from both angles, ie. target both potential abusers and potential victims. Most people who sexually harass others absolutely do know what they are doing is wrong, are aware they are causing distress and simply do not care as long as they can get away with it.
So, if we want to reduce sexual-harassment, creating an environment where it is not tolerated and there are severe consequences will act as a deterrent. It's not exactly 'teaching' people not to do it, just making it clear that such behaviour carries huge risks.

Teaching potential victims how to protect themselves is important, but if you only do that, it tends to be interpreted by many people as simply saying we shouldn't get into situations where somebody can abuse us, and if we do, it's 100% our fault (just look at some of the posts in this thread). That is a dangerous message to send out. It lets the abuser off the hook and its shames the victim, which may make people less likely to speak out.
If an abuser targets someone who fails to protect themselves due to youth, lack of experience, being ill, stressed by real-life issues etc then I'd like to think the community would be there for them, no matter how obvious the danger might seem to anyone looking at their situation from the outside.

Of course, telling people what the danger-signs are and what they can do if they find themselves being harassed is absolutely vital, too.

[BillyKaplan]

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another?

You teach them exactly that, rather than tell women and victims how to not be abused, which sadly seems to be the more popular approach to the matter. You (general) can also stop going easy when people are found guilty of abuse or harassment. "But he's such a good boy from a good home and he's a star student in college!" Uh, if the court just found him guilty of rape, I don't think he's such a good boy, and the punishment should reflect that. But because it's not only hard to get the guilty verdict, but the sentences are also laughable, people learn that they can get away with it. There need to be harsher consequences to these actions.

Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Uh, yes? "Someone with that mindset", how did they reach that mindset in the first place? No one's born with any mindset. They're raised and groomed into it. If you teach a boy from a young age that girls are people too just like they are (#INeedFeminismBecause), if you stop saying "boys will be boys" when they hurt someone, if you hold boys accountable to their actions from a young age instead of just expecting them to know better when they hit a certain age and then go easy on them when they don't, then they will know better when they grow up. They'll know women aren't there just for their sexual pleasure; they'll know that if they hurt someone, they'll be punished for it and not get a reduced sentence, so they'll be much less likely to commit the crime; they'll be decent human beings.

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people?

What are you going to do, teach yourself how to clean up after your dog, or get the dog used to only doing its stuff on the paper, and then outside?
My attacker was someone I've known for over ten years and was one of my best friends. The only thing I can "learn" from this is to become a hermit and never form bonds with anyone else ever again because I don't know who will end up betraying me next.
Imagine if instead, we tried to teach people not to assault and harass.