Materia: the new Armory System

[Coglin]

I kind of wanted to keep on topic which is why I didn't launch into a huge post about this, but since you're calling me out and all....

I wouldn't exactly call my stating that I disagree with you as "calling out"

As I said in my initial post, I think removing multi-slotting alltogether would be a simple and easy to balance solution to the problems that I see with the Materia system as it is now. In terms of making Materia melding a skillful process, there are many many many ways it could be done, and many people have made suggestions but I have found that most developers don't like to be told "you should do ______" to fix a problem. As long as they know it's a problem, then they can take steps to fix it.

In your initial post, I read nothing that I personally consider as skill related to any melding of materia. As well, I disagree with your statement that removing multi-slotting does anything to solve the issue. Personally, I enjoy the %'s. Its gamble offers crafters a reason to take risk. As well as it assist in removing items and gil from the system to help control inflation and maintain as much as can be of a attempt at stabaliing the economy.
I think you missed my point. My intention was not simply for dev suggestions. Although I do believe you are wrong, and that in particular, on these forums, they have listened to players rather well as of late. Mostly though, I wanted to hear your ideas.

Did you read my initial post? Or any of my other posts in this thread? The point of this thread is to bring the issues up so the developers know that there are some problems.

Yes, did you read any of my post? The point of my perspective on this thread, is that I adamently disagree with you, as we mentioned earlier there are 5 other threads with posters who also disagree with you, as well as some who agree with you.

The reason I bring this up is because you often talk about this legendary group of people who support what you're saying, but they are never around.

Interesting. There are 5 very recent previous threads, some of which you posted on, in debate with others who have similar perspectives as me. Is your memory just that limited? I mean they were even compiled in one post on this thread.

The materia system is a **** block for future gear that is made u/u and takes out the need for long term goals in gear. If and when using just double melds you can hit your AA and WS DMG modifier caps... you have a problem.

This is not nesiccerily true either, Making U/U gear just as meldable solves the issue from my perspective.

[Sol_Aureus]

I wouldn't exactly call my stating that I disagree with you as "calling out"

I don't call disagreeing with me calling me out either. Saying this on the other hand:

I ask, how do you propose they create a "skill level" if you are going to complain about the current system, It would often be wise to actual have a constructive idea. What I am saying is, if your going to endlessly complain about the system, perhaps you should offer a suggested fix.

I'd call that calling me out. "It would often be wise to actual(ly) have a constructive idea"? "Perhaps you should offer a suggested fix"? Yeah. Those qualify in my book.

I think you missed my point. My intention was not simply for dev suggestions. Although I do believe you are wrong, and that in particular, on these forums, they have listened to players rather well as of late. Mostly though, I wanted to hear your ideas.

Well, there you have some of my ideas in my previous post. I could come up with many many ideas and flesh them out into full systems, but like I said, I'm not a developer for this game. I leave that to them.

Yes, did you read any of my post? The point of my perspective on this thread, is that I adamently disagree with you, as we mentioned earlier there are 5 other threads with posters who also disagree with you, as well as some who agree with you.

Wait, what? I assume you mean this post?

That was not to point out people who agree or disagree with me, it was to refute your claim that my thread was the same as the other "8 threads of this discussion in the past 2 weeks." It had nothing to do with trying to bring up people who agree or disagree with me. Honestly if I'm in the minority here, fine. But if that's the case, get people to post in this thread explaining why they think the system is fine as is, and why my arguments against the system are invalid or aren't as big of an issue as I think.

And that includes you.

Disagreeing with me is fine. In fact, I welcome it. But give me logical reasons as to why my problems with the Materia system aren't problem enough to warrant change.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

Interesting. There are 5 very recent previous threads, some of which you posted on, in debate with others who have similar perspectives as me. Is your memory just that limited? I mean they were even compiled in one post on this thread.

None of which look at the materia system as perfectly as you do. There are times where you can just say, "I haven't looked at it that way." Which you never do. In any debate. You usually make unintelligent statements in fields you know little about.

This is not nesiccerily true either, Making U/U gear just as meldable solves the issue from my perspective.

You still hit the modifier thresholds this way. Anything additional needs to be completely unique like gear that adds an augmented trait, ability, weapon skill, or spell.

I'm thinking of the future and not right now. Right now it's fine. In the future there will be balancing issues. This is basing off the knowing of how stats work right now. (Not entirely every aspect, but the community has figured out a good amount of melee dmg, magic dmg, and enhancing formulas.)

[Coglin]

None of which look at the materia system as perfectly as you do.
Interesting hipocracy, now you assume to tell me how they look at it after bashing me for pointing out the fact that they posted in disagreement with your perspective on the previous debates.

There are times where you can just say, "I haven't looked at it that way." Which you never do. In any debate. You usually make unintelligent statements in fields you know little about.
No ones asking you to like me, or agree with me, but no need to continue to bash me because I disagree with you.


You still hit the modifier thresholds this way. Anything additional needs to be completely unique like gear that adds an augmented trait, ability, weapon skill, or spell.
And which thresholds would that be?The HP threshhold with Bloodthirst? The MP threshhold with Manathirst? Healing Pot. Mag Pot. Att Pot. Thresholds? Resistance or enmity thresholds? Crit. Att. threshold? Evasion threshold? There are very many attributes that materia adds that one has no threshold for.

I'm thinking of the future and not right now. Right now it's fine. In the future there will be balancing issues.
Thats your highly subjective opinion. In my opinion, making every and all items meldable solves any balance issue.

This is basing off the knowing of how stats work right now. (you mean like how you attempted to imply every benefit matera can offer has a threshold) (Not entirely every aspect, but the community has figured out a good amount of melee dmg, magic dmg, and enhancing formulas.)

get people to post in this thread explaining why they think the system is fine as is, and why my arguments against the system are invalid or aren't as big of an issue as I think.

Are you assuming I think its fine the way it is ? I may be mistaken but I do not recall claiming so. I do recall several times pointing out that I feel my solutuon of making all U/U gear meldable as well, as it helps filter out gear by making materia out of it, keeps people raiding more due to gear lost in risked multi-melds, thus aiding in stabalizing inflation and the economy.

This one is on page 1 of your thread

Someone else has made the point that they should make the dropped gear meld-able and convert-able

Here is another on page 3

Make U/U gear meldable.

Another here disagreeing with you and me both.

I disagreed with the premise of the OP.

To facilitate the melding and crafting of U/U items and gear.

There in the first 5 of 12 pages are just a few who support multi-meldind and U/U gear melding. Perhaps you should read your own thread before claiming no one see perspectives other then yours.

Thus i see no point in "getting people to post on this thread" when they clearly already do.

[Sol_Aureus]

Are you assuming I think its fine the way it is ? I may be mistaken but I do not recall claiming so. I do recall several times pointing out that I feel my solutuon of making all U/U gear meldable as well, as it helps filter out gear by making materia out of it, keeps people raiding more due to gear lost in risked multi-melds, thus aiding in stabalizing inflation and the economy.

I assumed the liked the system as is because you specifically said so here:

My point being, I like thesystem, as alot of us do. If you have issues with it, you will meet heavy resistance, unless you can offer an idea of equavilent or better value to the rest of us.

This one is on page 1 of your thread

Here is another on page 3

Another here disagreeing with you and me both.



There in the first 5 of 12 pages are just a few who support multi-meldind and U/U gear melding. Perhaps you should read your own thread before claiming no one see perspectives other then yours.

Thus i see no point in "getting people to post on this thread" when they clearly already do.

So where exactly did I claim no one sees perspectives other than my own? In fact, I encourage people who disagree with me throughout the entire thread to come and give their opinions as to why they disagree with me. But I want them to give counter-points to my arguments and the problems that I have with the system instead of just saying "you're wrong." That doesn't get the discussion going anywhere. That doesn't help me see your viewpoint.

So let me try and understand your viewpoint then and offer counter-arguments.

I do recall several times pointing out that I feel my solutuon of making all U/U gear meldable as well, as it helps filter out gear by making materia out of it, keeps people raiding more due to gear lost in risked multi-melds, thus aiding in stabalizing inflation and the economy.

In my opinion, I think this would improve the current system slightly, but the majority of the problems still remain.

It would allow U/U gear to be melded so that it can get the same bonuses as the crafted gear (which is great) so people would want to get this gear and then put Materia on it so you could have the best gear.

But hold on, how hard is this gear going to be to get? For a system like the one you agree with, like you said, people would want to continue to raid to get more copies of the same piece to try again for their multi-melds. What about those who haven't gotten a piece in the first place? Should the person who blew up 10 moogle bows get the next one? Or should the person who hasn't gotten a moogle bow in the first place get it? This creates more unnecessary trouble for linkshells to worry about for loot distribution. But perhaps you don't think that's a problem. Fine. What defines the best gear then?

Well, from your statements, it implies that multi-melded U/U gear would be the best gear, since they have the best base stats and the multi-melded Materia boost. But this system still has my original problems with the Materia system: It's the core of what defines the best gear, and under your suggestion the obtaining and melding process for Materia would stay the exact same as it is right now: entirely luck based. Going out and defeating challenging content will NOT be the main factor in determining if you have the best gear, it will be entirely luck. One person could be doing pick up groups for an event and happen to get lucky and get their drop on the one time the pick up group managed to clear the content. They double-meld successfully their first try. Another could have cleared the content hundreds of times and gotten 25 drops of the item they want, and be 0/25 on double melding. And yet the random guy has better gear now. Granted, these kind of situations will happen in any MMO: someone gets lucky and someone else is really unlucky. But under the Materia system, this will be the core premise of what decides who gets the best gear.

Gear needs to mean something. When I see someone with a really rare weapon I want to be able to glance at them and go "damn he has that weapon?! He must have worked for that thing!" Under your system, these drops need to be fairly common to give people a chance to double-meld, so everyone will look the same and there will be no differentiation between those who have worked for their stuff and those who have not.

In addition, why get the U/U stuff in the first place? Like I have said many times before, certain Materia will outperform U/U gear easily. It'll be much easier for people to mass produce crafted gear and spam trying double or triple melding to get that really good stat (like, say, healing magic potency) as opposed to trying to clear the content and maybe getting their piece of gear they want then trying to double meld it.

So Coglin, give me reasons as to why these are non-issues other than saying "they just aren't."

[Coglin]

So let me try and understand your viewpoint then and offer counter-arguments.

In my opinion, I think this would improve the current system slightly, but the majority of the problems still remain.

It would allow U/U gear to be melded so that it can get the same bonuses as the crafted gear (which is great) so people would want to get this gear and then put Materia on it so you could have the best gear.

But hold on, how hard is this gear going to be to get? Well what is "hard" or requires "stratagy" to accomplish is highly subjective.

For a system like the one you agree with, like you said, people would want to continue to raid to get more copies of the same piece to try again for their multi-melds. What about those who haven't gotten a piece in the first place? What about them? are you proposing a system allowing us to see what others have looted in the past? Who gets the loot and how they get it is more an issue with the loot system and not the materia system.

Should the person who blew up 10 moogle bows get the next one? Thats for the group to decide. If your with randoms, you may have issues of not knowing who has what already anyway. It is an issue you could have under any system. If your with LS mates (which is hoe I believe most do it) then you should generally know who has what.

Or should the person who hasn't gotten a moogle bow in the first place get it? This creates more unnecessary trouble for linkshells to worry about for loot distribution. But perhaps you don't think that's a problem. Fine. What defines the best gear then? I am a little unclear on your meaning heere. How does loot distribution relate to you asking "What defines the best gear then?"

Well, from your statements, it implies that multi-melded U/U gear would be the best gear, since they have the best base stats and the multi-melded Materia boost. But this system still has my original problems with the Materia system: It's the core of what defines the best gear, and under your suggestion the obtaining and melding process for Materia would stay the exact same as it is right now: entirely luck based. Going out and defeating challenging content will NOT be the main factor in determining if you have the best gear, it will be entirely luck. One person could be doing pick up groups for an event and happen to get lucky and get their drop on the one time the pick up group managed to clear the content. They double-meld successfully their first try. Another could have cleared the content hundreds of times and gotten 25 drops of the item they want, and be 0/25 on double melding. And yet the random guy has better gear now. Granted, these kind of situations will happen in any MMO: someone gets lucky and someone else is really unlucky. But under the Materia system, this will be the core premise of what decides who gets the best gear. Well, thats where we see it differently then. You presume the luck as a bad thing. I do not. Earning the raid gear is not total luck. You still have to win the battles. Battles that alot of players have yet to complete even once. As of now, drop rates are just as much luck as a sucessful melds. What makes your opinion of where luck is good and bad better then mine, or the next guys?

Gear needs to mean something. Again, this is were we disagree on what it takes to make gear "mean something" and you automatically assume your opinion is more valueable then the rest of us.


When I see someone with a really rare weapon I want to be able to glance at them and go "damn he has that weapon?! He must have worked for that thing!" Under your system, these drops need to be fairly common to give people a chance to double-meld, so everyone will look the same and there will be no differentiation between those who have worked for their stuff and those who have not. Have you suceeded with any double melds yourself? just because you "claim" that no one "works for it" doesn't mean everyone see's it that way too. Alot of folks see the effort they put into leveling a class and the time spent on aquiring the items, and the time spent melding them as "damn sure earning it."

In addition, why get the U/U stuff in the first place? Well because it would have the best general base stats, similar to how it is now, or possibly have stats not offered by materia. Who knows the future may bring rare materia that only raid mobs drop. Yet I assume, you would further complain about the luck facter of the drop rates there as well?


Like I have said many times before, certain Materia will outperform U/U gear easily. Then they need to make U/U gear better. simple solution there.


It'll be much easier for people to mass produce crafted gear and spam trying double or triple melding to get that really good stat (like, say, healing magic potency) as opposed to trying to clear the content and maybe getting their piece of gear they want then trying to double meld it. If U/U gear is made with enough of a greater base value (which in my opinion it should be anyway) then it would clearly be the optimal gear to multi-meld.

So Coglin, give me reasons as to why these are non-issues other than saying "they just aren't."
Give me a reason your opinions of "issues" and "reasons" are more important then mine or any one elses? Because you just state the term "they just aren't" doesn't make it so. I could say the same thing about your reasons and reasoning.

Not to mention. It helps in finding parties for endgame content at times. If a player has his ideal item or drop already, he has no reason to raid said mob further. If he has an oppertunity to get the item again offering an attempt at a multi-meld, then that is a larger pool of players willing to do the same raid event repeatedly over time. Otherwise, you are just as likely once the player has there ideal drops, they will have no real interest to do the event further.

Also, it will continue to filter gear and items out of the economy. Something I see players constistantly asking for more of.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

Your posts reek of insecurities. You have no business debating anything. So far all I see is you acting defensive stating that people think their opinion is superior to yours when there is nothing indicating that they deliberately meant for you to feel that way.

Also, the "I know you are, but what am I?" type responses are so much in your favor.

[Coglin]

Your posts reek of insecurities. Is there a point to that comment? You know like a statement of opinion? or a specific you meant by that?

You have no business debating anything. Care to post a fact to support that. I love these statements in which you feel like because you dislike what I am saying, you can make some falsly superior clame that other have no "right" or no "business" doing something. If you have a point, fact, or hell, even a constructive opinion, feel free to jump in. Otherwise your just repeatedly making yourself appear foolish.

So far all I see is you acting defensive stating that people think their opinion is superior to yours when there is nothing indicating that they deliberately meant for you to feel that way. I don't feel like I am being defencive at all. Its not my fault you repeatedly misinterperet my post, then trolingly lash out because you disagree with my opinion. Again, we welcome opinions and ideas.

Also, the "I know you are, but what am I?" type responses are so much in your favor. WTH are you even babling about here? Oh I see, your making more false assumtions. Show me where I specifically said "I know you are, but what am I?" As you claim or STFU.

They way you keep posting on this thread, eventually one of them will have to accidentally have a fact, opinion, or something other then pure hate trolling.

[Sol_Aureus]

But hold on, how hard is this gear going to be to get?

Well what is "hard" or requires "stratagy" to accomplish is highly subjective.

Ok? While it is subjective, I don't see your point in bringing that up here?

For a system like the one you agree with, like you said, people would want to continue to raid to get more copies of the same piece to try again for their multi-melds. What about those who haven't gotten a piece in the first place?

What about them? are you proposing a system allowing us to see what others have looted in the past? Who gets the loot and how they get it is more an issue with the loot system and not the materia system.

Wait...what? I never proposed a system like that. The reason I brought this situation up is because it is, like I said in my post, an unnecessary problem created by allowing U/U gear to be destroyed because that's the way double melding works. It has nothing to do with the loot system itself.

Should the person who blew up 10 moogle bows get the next one?

Thats for the group to decide. If your with randoms, you may have issues of not knowing who has what already anyway. It is an issue you could have under any system. If your with LS mates (which is hoe I believe most do it) then you should generally know who has what.

Once again, it creates more problems than what would already be present with standard loot distribution. Yes, we'll know who has what and who has gotten how many of something, etc, etc, but the thing is is adds another factor into the equation when trying to decide who gets what. But I concede that this isn't that strong of an argument, it's just something to consider.

Or should the person who hasn't gotten a moogle bow in the first place get it? This creates more unnecessary trouble for linkshells to worry about for loot distribution. But perhaps you don't think that's a problem. Fine. What defines the best gear then?

I am a little unclear on your meaning heere. How does loot distribution relate to you asking "What defines the best gear then?"

It was a bad segue into my next point. When I said "But perhaps you don't think that's a problem. Fine." that was supposed to be the end of my argument about it creating more unnecessary loot distribution problems.

Well, from your statements, it implies that multi-melded U/U gear would be the best gear, since they have the best base stats and the multi-melded Materia boost. But this system still has my original problems with the Materia system: It's the core of what defines the best gear, and under your suggestion the obtaining and melding process for Materia would stay the exact same as it is right now: entirely luck based. Going out and defeating challenging content will NOT be the main factor in determining if you have the best gear, it will be entirely luck. One person could be doing pick up groups for an event and happen to get lucky and get their drop on the one time the pick up group managed to clear the content. They double-meld successfully their first try. Another could have cleared the content hundreds of times and gotten 25 drops of the item they want, and be 0/25 on double melding. And yet the random guy has better gear now. Granted, these kind of situations will happen in any MMO: someone gets lucky and someone else is really unlucky. But under the Materia system, this will be the core premise of what decides who gets the best gear.

Well, thats where we see it differently then. You presume the luck as a bad thing. I do not. Earning the raid gear is not total luck. You still have to win the battles. Battles that alot of players have yet to complete even once. As of now, drop rates are just as much luck as a sucessful melds. What makes your opinion of where luck is good and bad better then mine, or the next guys?

Yes, this is where we see things differently, and where you don't seem to understand my points. Perhaps I was not clear. I agree, earning the raid gear is not total luck. In fact, that's my point.

Having to clear the content should be the biggest factor in getting the best gear. As it is now, and by the system you propose, the Materia melding process which is entirely luck-based, is the biggest factor in getting the best gear.

Hope that was clear enough.

Also, I never assert that my opinion is better than anyone else's. I have told you this already in my previous posts. I have said if you disagree with me, refute my arguments (which you have yet to do) so I can see your viewpoint. That's all I want, to see other people's viewpoints if they disagree with me.

Gear needs to mean something.

Again, this is were we disagree on what it takes to make gear "mean something" and you automatically assume your opinion is more valueable then the rest of us.

Seriously, what is with you and asserting that I think my opinions are more valuable than other peoples?

When I see someone with a really rare weapon I want to be able to glance at them and go "damn he has that weapon?! He must have worked for that thing!" Under your system, these drops need to be fairly common to give people a chance to double-meld, so everyone will look the same and there will be no differentiation between those who have worked for their stuff and those who have not.

Have you suceeded with any double melds yourself? just because you "claim" that no one "works for it" doesn't mean everyone see's it that way too. Alot of folks see the effort they put into leveling a class and the time spent on aquiring the items, and the time spent melding them as "damn sure earning it."

Really? "Have you succeeded with any double melds yourself?" Classy.

Yes, I have full sets of double+ melded gear and I've successfully multi-melded many times.

And I never claimed that "no one 'works for it'". I'm saying the process itself once you've obtained your Materia is entirely luck-based. You hit the Materia and item and hit meld and hope it works. That's it. There's no challenge. There's no skill. Only luck.

In addition, why get the U/U stuff in the first place?

Well because it would have the best general base stats, similar to how it is now, or possibly have stats not offered by materia. Who knows the future may bring rare materia that only raid mobs drop. Yet I assume, you would further complain about the luck facter of the drop rates there as well?

The luck factor of drop rates are fine. Again, my entire point is that luck is by far the main factor in deciding what is the best gear. The main factor should be more based around skill and challenge instead of beating your head against a random number generator.

Having the best base stats or specific stats not offered by Materia is great, but the question is when weighing your options are you really going to choose going for this piece of gear which you may get if you manage to clear the content when you already have to go through:
Getting the Materia you want which you might get from an item from spiritbonding which has a chance of being the right tier which will maybe be a high level of that tier, then you try and double meld them which might work.
Given the fact that you already have to go through all that, it's much easier to just mass-produce crafted gear and spam double and triple melds. Like I've said before.

Like I have said many times before, certain Materia will outperform U/U gear easily.

Then they need to make U/U gear better. simple solution there.

It can be done, yes. But balancing the new U/U gear with the imbalance that Materia causes right now is going to be incredibly difficult, and hardly a "simple solution."

It'll be much easier for people to mass produce crafted gear and spam trying double or triple melding to get that really good stat (like, say, healing magic potency) as opposed to trying to clear the content and maybe getting their piece of gear they want then trying to double meld it.

If U/U gear is made with enough of a greater base value (which in my opinion it should be anyway) then it would clearly be the optimal gear to multi-meld.

I already said that that's correct. It would be the optimal gear to multi-meld for the best stats. But again, when weighing their options, players will probably try for multi-slotting crafted gear since it's much easier.

So Coglin, give me reasons as to why these are non-issues other than saying "they just aren't."

Give me a reason your opinions of "issues" and "reasons" are more important then mine or any one elses? Because you just state the term "they just aren't" doesn't make it so. I could say the same thing about your reasons and reasoning.

Once again I never said my opinions are more important than anyone else's.

And no, you cannot say the same about my reasons and reasoning, because I clearly explain my points and directly respond to your points with counter-points. I never say "just because".

Not to mention. It helps in finding parties for endgame content at times. If a player has his ideal item or drop already, he has no reason to raid said mob further. If he has an oppertunity to get the item again offering an attempt at a multi-meld, then that is a larger pool of players willing to do the same raid event repeatedly over time. Otherwise, you are just as likely once the player has there ideal drops, they will have no real interest to do the event further.

Also, it will continue to filter gear and items out of the economy. Something I see players constistantly asking for more of.

By balancing drop rates of the U/U gear and how they're obtained in the first place, there are many many ways of making content worthwhile to do. Look at FFXI. I played FFXI for 7 years, and during my entire endgame experience there were always people doing Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Nyzul, etc, etc, etc, because people still needed stuff from there. People will have reason to go do content to help their friends get what they want too.

And I'm tired of doing this run-around with you. Quit responding to my refutes with questions and non-answers. Either post reasons why you disagree with me and contribute to discussion or stop posting.

[Coglin]

Ok? While it is subjective, I don't see your point in bringing that up here? Umm, because it is subjective. The fact that it is subjective, makes it a non-fact. so its hard to use that to support your point. Thats why I pointed it out. If its a matter of perspective and opinion, well it works against your point as much as for it. Depending on who reads it.

Wait...what? I never proposed a system like that. The reason I brought this situation up is because it is, like I said in my post, an unnecessary problem created by allowing U/U gear to be destroyed because that's the way double melding works. It has nothing to do with the loot system itself.

Again, whats an unecissary problem or a neccissary one is a matter of opinion. I see it as a plus that people would redo raid content for a shot at the same item multiple times to attept to use it for multi-melds. In my opinion, it keeps the over all number of people raiding. Some of the posters issues on the forums now is that alot of players have there ideal weapon or item, thus no longer do the content.

Yes, this is where we see things differently, and where you don't seem to understand my points. Perhaps I was not clear. I agree, earning the raid gear is not total luck. In fact, that's my point. Oh no, I see your point. I just don't agree with it.

Having to clear the content should be the biggest factor in getting the best gear. I disagree. From where I stand, It should be 1/3 of the factor. Getting the ideal Materia would be another 1/3, and managing a multimeld the last 1/3. I could even se it as 1/2 and the materia aquisition and multimeld as the other 1/2. Again, I believe this is where we have the largest gap in our views.

As it is now, and by the system you propose, the Materia melding process which is entirely luck-based, is the biggest factor in getting the best gear. Again, thats a matter of opinion. An opinion that you repeatedly state as if its fact. Bolding it, does not make it more true. Make that claim to all the players of FFXIV that still do no have a weapon from ifrit for the class they feel is there favorite, or prefered main.

Hope that was clear enough. Its not a matter of being clear or not. I undertand your point fully and completely, and I feel I understand your perspective as well. I simply disagree with the large majority of your take on it. Our views are totally different. As I see it. Crating should always be 1/2 the value of any end game gear. The act of raiding for items i see as the other 1/2. I as many other players did, took on this game, having been told that DoL/H were to be full classes, of equavalent importance as DoW/M.

Also, I never assert that my opinion is better than anyone else's. I have told you this already in my previous posts. I have said if you disagree with me, refute my arguments (which you have yet to do) so I can see your viewpoint. That's all I want, to see other people's viewpoints if they disagree with me.

Clearly you did just that, you said

So Coglin, give me reasons as to why these are non-issues other than saying "they just aren't."

and

So Coglin, give me reasons as to why these are non-issues other than saying "they just aren't.

I had given my reasons several times in my previous post. The only way I can take this statement then, is that you are implying that you gave them so little value that you didn't consider them reasons at all.

Seriously, what is with you and asserting that I think my opinions are more valuable than other peoples? Statements similar to above. Perhaps It is my fault though, and I am misunderstanding the meaning of those comments. If I misunderstood your intentions and meaning then I apologize.



Really? "Have you succeeded with any double melds yourself?" Classy.
Yes, I have full sets of double+ melded gear and I've successfully multi-melded many times. Classy? was that meant to mean something? Personally I thought it was a legitiment question because it was 100% relavent to the point. Your comments such as this, which appear to attept to get in subtle cheap shots or digs in on me are exactly why it appears you think your opinions and perspectives are more importent. Just because you do not understand why I feel the question is 100% relavent does not mean I lack class. Snide and uncalled for comments like that will turn a conversation south quickly, and put other posters against you. I had no reason to assume you hade a full set of double melded gear that you made. Thus I asked. Just because you think its less relavent, you pressume to use it as an oppertunity to insult me.

And I never claimed that "no one 'works for it'". I'm saying the process itself once you've obtained your Materia is entirely luck-based. You hit the Materia and item and hit meld and hope it works. That's it. There's no challenge. There's no skill. Only luck.
Maybe the melding process, yes, but aquiring the right ifrit item enough times to get a multimeld is not pure luck. That is my point. You call gettin an item that is somewhat rare like a specific ifrit weapon enough times to multimeld it as

no challenge.

I just disagree completely.

The luck factor of drop rates are fine. Again, my entire point is that luck is by far the main factor in deciding what is the best gear. The main factor should be more based around skill and challenge instead of beating your head against a random number generator.Again, this is where your opinion of luck varies from mine and we simply disagree. A great many people feel that

The luck factor of drop rates are fine

is absolutely incorrect, and that they are not fine. Matter of fact there are meaning threads debating that alone.

Having the best base stats or specific stats not offered by Materia is great, but the question is when weighing your options are you really going to choose going for this piece of gear which you may get if you manage to clear the content when you already have to go through:
Getting the Materia you want which you might get from an item from spiritbonding which has a chance of being the right tier which will maybe be a high level of that tier, then you try and double meld them which might work.
Given the fact that you already have to go through all that, it's much easier to just mass-produce crafted gear and spam double and triple melds. Like I've said before. All your "might" and "has a chance" terms are just as relavent terms that anyone can apply to the "chance" of a particular weapon you need from Ifrit as well. What I am getting at is that I, and I believe many others, feel that where a certain amount of luck is or is not relavent is also to subjective and opinionated to support either perspective.

It can be done, yes. But balancing the new U/U gear with the imbalance that Materia causes right now is going to be incredibly difficult, and hardly a "simple solution." There is alot of truth to this. In my opinion, alot of that depends on how they balance U/U gear, Materia we have now, and the materia the mention adding in the future, and U/U gear that is not yet implemented.

I already said that that's correct. It would be the optimal gear to multi-meld for the best stats. But again, when weighing their options, players will probably try for multi-slotting crafted gear since it's much easier. Again, this is somewhat subjective. Depending on how they adjust U/U gear we have now (they did say there were tweaks incomming) and gear they add. It has also been mentioned that in the future, certain materia can be made to drop only off certain mobs. This possible change, I believe, would add more of what you are looking for to the process as well. We will have to wait and see how that turns out.

Once again I never said my opinions are more important than anyone else's. But you do chose to make implications with you comments like the "class" reference when I ask what I feel is an honest and relavent question.

And no, you cannot say the same about my reasons and reasoning, because I clearly explain my points and directly respond to your points with counter-points. I never say "just because". As do I. You are not presenting any more or less in your comments then I feel I am, yet mine are not relavent enough to be equal to yours that I can say the same about your points as you do mine? this is precisely where you are displaying that you feel your opinion and points are more relavent then others.


And I'm tired of doing this run-around with you. Quit responding to my refutes with questions and non-answers.Lol none answers ?? really? just because you don't like or agree with them, or feel that they are as valid as yours does not make thwm none answers. Wow, you really do believe your points and opinions are better then others.
Either post reasons why you disagree with me and contribute to discussion or stop posting.
I have posted several reasons, just because you do not appreciate them does not make them less valid...

No need to be a wise arse about it. Just like earlier when you challenged me to get others to post and I quoted several post off the first few pages of people who specifically commented on making U/U gear meldable as perspective solution. You never said one more word about it. You called me out and I posed fact that others saw that view You were as wrong then as you are now to tell me My perspective is not valid enough to permit me to post here further.

If you desire to be a forum Nazi, and attempt to make demands and bark orders at me, all I can tell you is STFU and try to make me.