Materia: the new Armory System

[Antipika]

And why not both? Powerful U/U items should exists along with craftable gear with materia on it.

To make U/U more interesting, add special bonuses/effects that cannot be obtained through materia. Add also active abilities with cooldown that can only be used if you are wearing a specific U/U piece of gear. Then balance stats cap of all classes so players are forced to equip a mix of U/U items and crafted gear with materia in order to be able to cap everything.

That's how gear & itemization worked on DAoC, players had to own powerful U/U items AND, in order to cap all their major stats, were forced to have couple of crafted armor piece, enchanted with gems they wanted (basically the same system as the materia system we have).

Equipping only U/U items wouldn't work because you would overcap some stats, while some would remain uncapped. Equipping only crafted items with gems wouldn't work because bonus provided weren't high enough + no special abilities.

The key? The perfect mix between U/U and crafted items. Everyone was happy.

[Khal_Drogo]

My Response to Brannigan:

I'm sorry Brannigan, but I don't agree. I think you're letting the "materia advocates" get off way too easy. It is completely ridiculous to make crafting the "mainline" method of obtaining end game gear. We're not playing harvest moon, or rune factory, or legend of mana.

This is an MMO, and we should be relying on MASSIVE amounts of ppl to obtain the best items/gear, not the "skill" and prowess of one insignifcant crafter with a lot of luck....

Proposal:

And why not both? Powerful U/U items should exists along with craftable gear with materia on it.

To make U/U more interesting, add special bonuses/effects that cannot be obtained through materia. Add also active abilities with cooldown that can only be used if you are wearing a specific U/U piece of gear. Then balance stats cap of all classes so players are forced to equip a mix of U/U items and crafted gear with materia in order to be able to cap everything.

That's how gear & itemization worked on DAoC, players had to own powerful U/U items AND, in order to cap all their major stats, were forced to have couple of crafted armor piece, enchanted with gems they wanted (basically the same system as the materia system we have).

Equipping only U/U items wouldn't work because you would overcap some stats, while some would remain uncapped. Equipping only crafted items with gems wouldn't work because bonus provided weren't high enough + no special abilities.

The key? The perfect mix between U/U and crafted items. Everyone was happy.

I feel, slightly, compelled to agree, Antipika, but one major issue stands keeps me from doing so:

There isn't the ability to do gear swaps in this game.

It's nice to have "unique" buffs on U/U gear that cannot be attained through materia, but what good does that do you if the stats on the materia'd gear are so much more diverse? If you can't swap gear, what do you prefer, as a mrd for example:

Being pretty good at taking dmg and really great at dealing tremendous dmg (options available to you, via materia)? or being able to do a "Blood Bath" for let's say a 500% increase in effectiveness? Now, obviously, you'd say "both" (the former during party play; and the latter during solo play), right? But what separates you from every other mrd? I'll tell you:

More than likely, it's always gonna be your U/U gear, cuz w/ enough gil (in a materia-inclusive system), anyone can be as good as anyone else. And when you take away the "competition," you take away the fun, and that overwhelming sensation you get when you accomplish something that so many others failed to do. And if you remove U/U gear from the picture (in terms of it's application during party play), you remove the opportunity for "bragging rights," which is a core aspect of the MMO experience.

U/U gear, obtained from EXTREMELY difficult fights/quests/missions, or w/e else, is always going to be a more compelling incentive than getting enough gil to *buy* end game gear. It's a really depressing prospect.

[Antipika]

My Response to Brannigan:



Proposal:



I feel, slightly, compelled to agree, Antipika, but one major issue stands keeps me from doing so:

There isn't the ability to do gear swaps in this game.

It's nice to have "unique" buffs on U/U gear that cannot be attained through materia, but what good does that do you if the stats on the materia'd gear are so much more diverse? If you can't swap gear, what do you prefer, as a mrd for example:

Being pretty good at taking dmg and really great at dealing tremendous dmg (options available to you, via materia)? or being able to do a "Blood Bath" for let's say a 500% increase in effectiveness? Now, obviously, you'd say "both" (the former during party play; and the latter during solo play), right? But what separates you from every other mrd? I'll tell you:

More than likely, it's always gonna be your U/U gear, cuz w/ enough gil (in a materia-inclusive system), anyone can be as good as anyone else. And when you take away the "competition," you take away the fun, and that overwhelming sensation you get when you accomplish something that so many others failed to do. And if you remove U/U gear from the picture (in terms of it's application during party play), you remove the opportunity for "bragging rights," which is a core aspect of the MMO experience.

U/U gear, obtained from EXTREMELY difficult fights/quests/missions, or w/e else, is always going to be a more compelling incentive than getting enough gil to *buy* end game gear. It's a really depressing prospect.

It's all about abilities you are willing to add on the U/U gear. Also U/U must have good stats + abilities. DAoC had no gear swap, but U/U gear had special effects that couldn't be obtained on crafted gear.

For example: Instant MP recovery or Instant DMG Absorb shield (like SS) etc.

Having such effects on U/U gear make them more desirable versus crafted gear, yet doesn't make them mandatory. It's all about balance. The average player will still be able to have decent stats, while someone who did endgame and all will have good stats + special abilities.

[Brannigan]

* Dropped Items and Materia
o This is the closest to this thread I could find. Still, it's mostly discussing the fact that U/U gear should be meldable, and that would solve a lot of the problems (which I disagree with. If they made U/U gear single meldable it'd make things bearable and U/U gear would actually get some use, but again the problem is double+ melding certain materia will FAR outperform anything that U/U gear will give.)

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system) a little bit in there, but that thread was basically ruined by a few retards. I tried to keep the OP focused on a specific goal since I thought it was a little more likely than getting rid of multi-melds. That said, I am of the opinion that the current materia system in general is broken and really bad for the game in the long term.

There's 2 ways to make the materia system good in my mind:

1) Everything gets 1 materia slot in 2.0. Multi-melds aren't possible and items with them have gone extinct.

or

2) Each item has a certain number of pre-set materia slots (For example: Ifrit's Bow has a Tier IV and a Tier III slot, Crab Bow has a Tier III slot and two Tier II slots). Melding has no chance of failure. Old multi-meld items are phased out.


I understand (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, so correct me if I'm wrong) you'd like to restrict melding to 1 only (which I agree with) but not allow it on U/U items. While this would be acceptable to me I don't see it as ideal. Materia is a neat concept and adds a nice level of customization to gear. It also gives some incentive to going out and grinding a bit even at max level.


anyway I guess what i'm trying to say here is bump

[Sol_Aureus]

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system) a little bit in there, but that thread was basically ruined by a few retards. I tried to keep the OP focused on a specific goal since I thought it was a little more likely than getting rid of multi-melds. That said, I am of the opinion that the current materia system in general is broken and really bad for the game in the long term.

There's 2 ways to make the materia system good in my mind:

1) Everything gets 1 materia slot in 2.0. Multi-melds aren't possible and items with them have gone extinct.

or

2) Each item has a certain number of pre-set materia slots (For example: Ifrit's Bow has a Tier IV and a Tier III slot, Crab Bow has a Tier III slot and two Tier II slots). Melding has no chance of failure. Old multi-meld items are phased out.


I understand (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, so correct me if I'm wrong) you'd like to restrict melding to 1 only (which I agree with) but not allow it on U/U items. While this would be acceptable to me I don't see it as ideal. Materia is a neat concept and adds a nice level of customization to gear. It also gives some incentive to going out and grinding a bit even at max level.


anyway I guess what i'm trying to say here is bump

Thanks for your input.

Honestly, I really don't have a specific ideal fix. My suggestion was to have multi-slotting removed, just because it's the simplest solution and easiest to balance, in my opinion. I would prefer U/U items be meldable as well under this system, however it wouldn't be the end of the world if they weren't meldable either as long as their stats made up for it.

Your idea is pretty interesting, however the problem I see with it is that you rarely get lower tier stuff (like II) from your high level items, so you would have to buy stuff that's lower level to get the proper tier Materia. Still, the idea is good in theory, and with some tweaking it could work wonderfully.

My main point in this thread is that Materia as it is right now is a really bad system. There are many, many, many ways to go about fixing it, but we need to let the devs know that it's a problem first.

[Coglin]

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system)

Thanks for your input honestly, I really don't have a specific ideal fix.

You guys post this as if its the general populations views as well. I don't believe most players feel mulit-melds is a problem in the least bit. If most people do not believe it is broken, then there is no ideal fix, or any fix for that matter.

[Sol_Aureus]

You guys post this as if its the general populations views as well. I don't believe most players feel mulit-melds is a problem in the least bit. If most people do not believe it is broken, then there is no ideal fix, or any fix for that matter.

If that's the case, I'd honestly like to hear their input as to why they think the points I raised aren't going to be an issue and the Materia system is fine as-is. I've had my opinions changed before because of responses, and if people bring up valid points that I can't refute, then I'll probably concede my point.

But that hasn't happened yet. So until it does, I will continue trying to bring this to the attention of the developers.

[Brannigan]

You guys post this as if its the general populations views as well. I don't believe most players feel mulit-melds is a problem in the least bit. If most people do not believe it is broken, then there is no ideal fix, or any fix for that matter.

I don't know, I never really tried to imply that. The "we" in that is referring to the people in the thread I was talking about. If I felt like the general population recognized the problem I wouldn't bother replying because the forums would have already taken care of it. If I had to guess I'd say that people are either still in "wait and see" mode or they're happy that they have good gear right now and aren't really thinking about what future items are going to look like.

I think that AF/Aurum Vale/Cutter's Whatever gear is really going to be a tipping point. If everyone is still running around in their crafted generics with crazy materia deep into 1.21 then I think you'll see more people talking about it. Likewise, if AF is good enough that people don't even bother with materia anymore, then that will probably get people talking.

[Aviny]

I think that AF/Aurum Vale/Cutter's Whatever gear is really going to be a tipping point. If everyone is still running around in their crafted generics with crazy materia deep into 1.21 then I think you'll see more people talking about it. Likewise, if AF is good enough that people don't even bother with materia anymore, then that will probably get people talking.

I think that SE wont implement AF being better than normal slotted gear because it is all on chance, and they don't want people walking around with the same gear. They will have AF to be good enough to have as a secondary classes gear but our current slotted gear will be way better even if it looks cool.

There is no way SE will have AF ARC gloves implemented with 100+ Crit nor will they add a CON head piece with 50+ Healing Magic Potency. I guess some parts of the gear will be better because you can only slot so much into certain items...but it wont be good enough to surpass my current slotted gear nor others that have better stats than I do.

If SE would happen to add gear that will far surpass most of our current gear it would have to be really hard to get as it was in 11.

[Khal_Drogo]

We did try to discuss the problems with multi-melding (specifically that it's a completely stupid system) a little bit in there, but that thread was basically ruined by a few retards. I tried to keep the OP focused on a specific goal since I thought it was a little more likely than getting rid of multi-melds. That said, I am of the opinion that the current materia system in general is broken and really bad for the game in the long term.

There's 2 ways to make the materia system good in my mind:

1) Everything gets 1 materia slot in 2.0. Multi-melds aren't possible and items with them have gone extinct.

or

2) Each item has a certain number of pre-set materia slots (For example: Ifrit's Bow has a Tier IV and a Tier III slot, Crab Bow has a Tier III slot and two Tier II slots). Melding has no chance of failure. Old multi-meld items are phased out.

I understand (though admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, so correct me if I'm wrong) you'd like to restrict melding to 1 only (which I agree with) but not allow it on U/U items. While this would be acceptable to me I don't see it as ideal. Materia is a neat concept and adds a nice level of customization to gear. It also gives some incentive to going out and grinding a bit even at max level.


anyway I guess what i'm trying to say here is bump

I like your option 2, so I highlighted in my quote of your post. The ONLY reason I don't agree w/ Sol on the idea to completely abolish the system is for this single reason:

-Because it would be sad to see something that contributes to player uniqueness go to waste.

I remember how fun it was comparing my thf to other ppl's thf on XI. Some ppl chose a full accy build w/ some str and attk; some chose all haste and low delay. Others, for WS, chose a pure DEX build and accy, while some chose DEX and AGI w/ only a few slots for accy, and so on.

The materia system definitely needs a LOT of adjusting, though. I absolutely HATE the variation of TIERS (16-20 for single stats, 50-70 for hp, 6-10 for multiple attribute types, etc.). That really needs to go. And the failure thing should go as well. LUCK is the single WORST aspect of gameplay in any platform (MMO, RPG, FPS, or w/e). The more we can do to eliminate luck from the equation, the better.