Omega and future raid concerns

[Remedi]

I think what I don't get is that the "extra phases" that people want to see put into "easier versions" (.... isn't... that... what... normal mode... is?) are... the things that make these fights Savage. Like, you pretty much have to remove those phases to make the fights easier. Like with UWU & the 'awaken' mechanics for each primal - it's the sheer reaction time required that makes it both awesome & difficult.

Is this argument really over the fact that Savage has a final mode to each boss that you don't actually want to fight in its current difficulty, and yet aren't willing to just YouTube and watch? You have to have yet another mode of the same content that already has a normal mode just so you can spend 15m face-rolling a phase because it's that important to "see it in person"?

It's why I was against normal mode and I'm against a new difficulty. There won't be a stop to this. I have already seen some ppl saying that 99 totems are too mcuh to get a mount and now this.
We have to stop, we can't continue to dump down the game and then complain that there's nothing to do or to work for

[Renato]

I bought my copy of Final Fantasy VII but I can't beat Emerald Weapon, why isn't there an easier version so I can experience the fight? I'm a paying customer I deserve to see everything in the game!
That's just silly, every RPG has some kind of difficult super boss which not everyone is going to be good enough to fight.
You don't see people complain that the Ixal, Moogle and Namazu quests are locked to crafters only, I'd love to see the storyline and get the rewards from those quests but unfortunately I have neither the time nor the patience to delve into crafting, but you don't see me demanding that content be available to me so I can experience it without putting in the same ammount of effort as others.

Not really a fair comparison...FFVII is a single player game that you can play on your own time and don't have depend on 8 other people to know different mechanics, have the gear to stand up to the boss and actually have the skill to actually do the fight. Same thing with the crafter's quests you mentioned. All those things depend you on and the time invested.

Did you not play ARR? Coil was all on a higher difficulty, plenty of people didn't ever get to experience that, so they made story mode in HW.

I got ARR day one but stopped playing it because I couldn't get into it and was frustrated with the constant server issues. I came back during HW when DRK was released because it was my favorite class.

I've been looking through everyone's comments over the last few days and I understand some of the arguments but my thought still remains.

I worded my concerns over the story incorrectly as nothing is left out of the story but if anything the raids themselves just felt empty. Being a fan of FFVI and Kefka, just fighting him on Normal with God Kefka being left out just felt incomplete. Same with with Exdeath. And sure people are saying just do Savage but my argument still comes up that A12 had a normal mode AND a savage mode and it didn't hurt anyone. People got to do both. Savage had better rewards and the more difficult mechanics. People who don't care to do that still farmed the normal mode because it gave somewhat, cool-looking gear. That is why I'm confused. It was unnecessary to remove that feature.

[Ameela]

snip

That's exactly the point.
What's the point of fighting these badass classic FF baddies if they're barely harder than a regular dungeon boss?
Personally as a fan of V I'd be much more miffed if Neo Exdeath was represented by a fight where everything he does barely tickles you and his mechanics seem incomplete, you already mentioned Kefka in story mode barely feels like a complete fight, why would you want to see Neo and God in a state like that? Just so you can say you fought them?
I mean yeah you fought and beat them good job but they're still bastardised versions of what they could really be, there's no satisfaction in doing a normal mode fight I think.

People often defend easy modes in games because it's a way for you to experience the story without having to deal with unmanageable hours of gameplay, that's fair and all, even if I don't agree, but in this case you're not losing anything by doing normal mode over savage, you're still getting the same exact story with or without the presence of Neo and God.

If anything I'd say they provide an incentive to get better at the game, learn your class and rotation with the goal of one day being able to beat God Kefka for real, because then the fight becomes much more satisfying than if it had simply been handed to you on a silver platter by making it as easy as Lakshmi.

[Renato]

Every other reference I've seen so far, with the exception of some Coil bosses, have been largely accessible to the playerbase: the Warring Triad trials, the Crystal Tower series, Return to Ivalice series, the angelic FFIX Alexander Prime... Why is Cloud of Darkness in her full form much more accessible than God Kefka? Why is the accessible Normal Kefka so underwhelming, having the whole statue and Dancing Mad theme progression going on so well only to abruptly end in it's climax because "dude now clear savage to find out haha"? At least Normal Exdeath felt like a more complete fight.

Had the Omega raid been it's own thing with unique fights instead of trying to earn nostalgia points, I wouldn't mind and I actually appreciate the extra phase for those who dedicate themselves to the harder content.

^^YES!! This is exactly how I feel!

[Ameela]

Not really a fair comparison...FFVII is a single player game that you can play on your own time and don't have depend on 8 other people to know different mechanics, have the gear to stand up to the boss and actually have the skill to actually do the fight. Same thing with the crafter's quests you mentioned. All those things depend you on and the time invested..

And interacting with other people in order to beat difficult content is exactly the kind of thing that makes the MMO genre unique and games like XIV interesting, if you want to beat challenging super bosses without interacting with others, might I direct you to the 12 or so other games in this franchise that might be more up your alley?
Why play an online game if all you want to do is get into a level and beat it while treating the 7 other people there like NPC's? And more importantly why should these online games change the way they're designed to cater to that kind of playstyle?

[HyoMinPark]

It would be a simple numbers pass. It would take minimal time to implement. Also don't speak for others. There are enough players in this thread making it known that the savage stuff in normal is very desirable.

Okay, and then what happens if they made a "normal mode" Neo or God Kefka is, the day they come out, threads appear asking for them to be nerfed because even the watered-down versions of Grand Cross Omega and the Forsakens are "too hard" and "players shouldn't have to deal with hard mechanics like this". People were calling for Castrum Fluminis story mode to be nerfed, Royal Menagerie, Final Steps of Faith. It's more than a "simple number pass" because most players don't want to do difficult mechanics. The Grand Crosses and the Forsakens are what make Neo and God into great fights; otherwise they are just glorified striking dummies. Take those out, and there is no fight anymore.

My point still stands: if people want these fights, jump into PF and become a savage raider. Other people have done it. Why can't (general) you?

These comments are becoming slightly antagonizing toward players that are "not them", and getting really defensive every time someone points out a flaw about these recent savage raids. This is a waste of time, what people are asking isn't much and this is acting like we're trying to destroy their sacred cow when this is not the case.

Stop asking for things to just be handed to you.

Don't come blaming us if there is not enough players doing these X-Scape Raids when it reaches that point. Some of you can say excuses excuses excuses, but it sounds like every time we point a flaw you all make a excuse for it.

This won’t be an issue, so don’t worry.

[FeliAiko]

Every other reference I've seen so far, with the exception of some Coil bosses, have been largely accessible to the playerbase: the Warring Triad trials, the Crystal Tower series, Return to Ivalice series, the angelic FFIX Alexander Prime...

Everything in this game is accessible. Even Coil was accessible, it just wasn't given to players on a silver platter to where just turning up was enough to get through it. Funny enough, SE damn near did everything but that by the end of ARR (Echo, nerfed mechanics/damage, easier access to gear upgrades) and yet people still complained about difficulty.

Why is the accessible Normal Kefka so underwhelming,

Welcome to the NM version of Raids. How are you expected to take a boss as a serious, imposing entity when they barely cause you any trouble in beating them in the first place? It's no coincidence that the Coil bosses (Twin, Nael, Bahamut) stand out like they do against those that came after.

having the whole statue and Dancing Mad theme progression going on so well only to abruptly end in it's climax because "dude now clear savage to find out haha"?

What do you mean "abruptly end"? The story is you faced Kefka, you beat him, and that's it. The Savage exclusive content is just that. It has no ties to the narrative.

At least Normal Exdeath felt like a more complete fight.

It's worth considering that, at the time, the general playerbase had no inclination that there was going to be a Neo version - especially the way it played out with it being an actual separate fight. So by the time Sigmascape came, there was already the expectation that there would be a second version of Kefka that would be Savage exclusive. Knowing that would make it hard to approach the Kefka fight in isolation as a 'complete' fight when you know that Savage was going to provide more.

[Anarnee]

It would be a simple numbers pass. It would take minimal time to implement. Also don't speak for others. There are enough players in this thread making it known that the savage stuff in normal is very desirable.

It's more than numbers. The normal fights omit and change mechanics. If you're as much of a raider as you say you are, you would know that it is not just changing numbers. Making the harder fights easy enough for someone that just can't coordinate or do mechanics is a lot more than that.

I am speaking for myself thank you, you said that it would not effect us, and I would like for you to not speak as if you know what you're talking about cause clearly you do not.

There are plenty against it too and our opinions deserve to be heard too.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

These comments are becoming slightly antagonizing toward players that are "not them", and getting really defensive every time someone points out a flaw about these recent savage raids. This is a waste of time, what people are asking isn't much and this is acting like we're trying to destroy their sacred cow when this is not the case.

Don't come blaming us if there is not enough players doing these X-Scape Raids when it reaches that point. Some of you can say excuses excuses excuses, but it sounds like every time we point a flaw you all make a excuse for it.

I mean, how would you feel if raiders insisted all the content you enjoy suddenly be ramped up in difficulty to Savage levels? Might get a little defensive too, especially if the developers kept listening to us. Regardless, you're the only who seems to be taking offense here. Several people have provided a counter-argument to your proposal and now you're essentially whining we didn't all agree. The purpose behind Neo and God are to create a spectacle for Savage, and yes, likely entice people to try raiding. If the task is still too daunting, you can challenge those fights down the road at significantly higher ilvls and beat them. Neo Exdeath will only get easier as our ilvl increases. If you're bothered by not seeing all the mechanics due to awkward skips, you wouldn't see even half of them were a normal version ever implemented.

And that brings forward another concern. Since neither Neo nor God have a normal equivalent, the developers can be more creative in how certain mechanics work since there won't be a need to water them down later. Including a normal mode means they either have to redesign it to work at a significantly reduced level or make less daunting mechanics in the Savage version, which inevitably means an easier fight for raiders.

Fortunately, Yoshida said Savage clears are at the highest they've been. So... we're not concerned about the pool of raiders to play with. :v

[Consurgens]

That's exactly the point.

Just to make it clear: I agree with the notion of making players work for their reward. As someone who grew up with FFVI, I did clear God Kefka despite not enjoying the fight from a tank point of view, just because I enjoy the challenge of beating that divine clown again - now in HD. The question however remains of why wasn't the winged Alexander Prime locked behind savage, considering how much of a badass he is in FFIX? Why was the final boss of FFIII a 24-man raid boss in ARR, rather than a higher tier of challenge just like the Coils were back then? Yiazmat is a well-known FFXII super boss that takes like 1 hour to defeat, but you can readily face him in the Ridorana Lighthouse.

That's what puzzles me: the choice of content for the more nostalgic aspects of the franchise. Should it all be present in easier content or should they make it gated in some way to encourage players to improve?

Besides, Normal Exdeath was rather challenging for many DF groups on the first week after release. I feel we can say that to an extent fights like normal Shinryu, Nidhogg and Tsukuyomi are enough to be both challenging while also accessible to most of the playerbase. More middle of the road fights is what I feel this game needs to reduce the skill-gap discrepancy. Not everything needs to be extremes: it doesn't have to be either Nael or Lakshmi.

points made

There is a clear difference in accessibility regarding savage and 24-man/normal trials and there are numbers to corroborate that.

My point regarding Normal Kefka was never about the story and the narrative, but rather the fight design. In FFVI you get to fight the statue, climbing towards the heavens as the music gets more and more ominous (just like in the Normal fight) until you reach the climax, with God Kefka descending from the skies and the chaotic final theme starting. The normal mode keeps the exactly same momentum, only to end without the climax and the bombastic theme that the fight is known for. Naturally this isn't much of an issue if the player never played FFVI. Exdeath in comparison was a lot more concise as a fight of it's own, but that might be a problem with Kefka itself as you mentioned.