selling wins

[RiyahArp]

You pretty much did say that though and you called bull when I said 99% don't.

There's no way only 1% of raiders do this. That's never how stuff like this works.

Look at parsers. Maybe yeah, at first 1% start with it. But unless people really condemn it or the devs make a big stand on it, it starts to spread. I saw this with Phantasy Star Online with duping. Beyond a certain point the culture of a game changes. Usually it starts out up top, with the more casual people unaware and ignoring it, but in the worst cases it spreads down, and can reach defacto acceptance. Parsers or third party progams don't hurt as much (although you could argue parsers and fflogs culture kind of alter the game in a way that makes it a much moe adversarial thing among random players) but they are an example of the spread. If you wonder why we never got Phantasy Star Online in the west, it was because players duped and hacked so much in it (to the point of being able to delete other players characters!) that sega just stopped.

I don't think it's gotten to 100% but it sure isn't 1% reading those replies and seeing how many people in MMOs in general defend the specific practice. FFXI kind of had a firebreak preventing that mostly because the sheer time burden meant not many people did HNMS, although I think at some point even sky shells wrestled with doing it. i'll admit I use hyperbolic language, but I'm getting sick of seeing this same stuff pop up in game after game I play. Especially if the whole endgame is suppsoedly skill-based, not time based.

[Rita1989]

Personally I don't really care if people sell wins for money since they're not affecting the overall economy of the game (ex: botting) or affecting other people's ability to earn things (ex: pvp wintrading).

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For a price they will log into your account and get you a top 100 rank in the feast and will often doing wintrading to help accomplish this.

[Penthea]

There's no way only 1% of raiders do this. That's never how stuff like this works.

Only 1% of raiders are good enough to carry someone in content that is designed to be brutally difficult for 8 people. Ultimate content is so difficult that most raid teams who attempt can't kill it with 8 people, nevermind with 7 and a dead weight.

The reason why they can sell the clears for so much money is because they have a monopoly on that market. If it was commonplace to be able to sell ultimate kills, no way could anyone charge several hundred dollars/euros/etc and have any customers.

[Rita1989]

Only 1% of raiders are good enough to carry someone in content that is designed to be brutally difficult for 8 people. Ultimate content is so difficult that most raid teams who attempt can't kill it with 8 people, nevermind with 7 and a dead weight.

The reason why they can sell the clears for so much money is because they have a monopoly on that market. If it was commonplace to be able to sell ultimate kills, no way could anyone charge several hundred dollars/euros/etc and have any customers.

They actually log into your account in the most HC content and play your character for you so they have 8 people.

[CreinCrein]

All ultimate sales runs include account sharing, not that I mind. Supply and demand; not really affecting the game in any major way save for the Feast boosting case. Most people that complain about it are scorned they aren't able to participate in it themselves. Someone paying 1200USD for something the sellers do as a hobby? God bless capitalism.

[Penthea]

They actually log into your account in the most HC content and play your character for you so they have 8 people.

Fair enough. But it's still true that only a tiny percentage of players can even kill an ultimate boss while it's still current.

[Squintina]

For a price they will log into your account and get you a top 100 rank in the feast and will often doing wintrading to help accomplish this.

Yeah..and..did I say otherwise?

Read my post again. You very much misunderstood it. The botting and wintrading were the examples of things that DO affect other players. Selling clears...not so much. It's still against TOS so people who do it do so at their own risk, but unlike the other 2 examples, it doesn't seem like as big of a deal.

Actually a large portion of the FC involved here actually have bots to fund their system, so yes, they do engage in botting and RMT that hurt the game. But they are top tier players, so it's ok, right??

Absolutely not, nor did I say it was. Nor did I imply in any way that one offense being slightly less offensive would somehow excuse another offense. Where in the heck do you get these things from? What's with the strawman?

What's with these people having such poor reading comprehension skills? Do you just read what you want to read rather than what's actually being said?

Let me try again.


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Personally I don't really care if people sell wins for money since it doesn't affect much.

Selling clears does not affect the overall economy of the game, unlike botters.
Or affect other people's ability to earn things, unlike the pvp wintraders.

But it technically is against TOS so..if someone does end up banned over it, it was their own fault. But I'd rather SE focus on combating botters and wintraders than clear sellers.
And yes, I'm aware a lot of them do a mixture, which is of course unacceptable, but if SE is going to go after them, I'd rather it be over their botting/wintrading practices.

I don't know if SE will actually do anything more than just post a warning. Since they don't really accept pictures, the only way they could really investigate it is if they themselves use the contact information in PF to talk to these people on discord and validate that they are indeed RMT-ing. It would be a slow process since it wouldn't be automated, but they could do that...

[RiyahArp]

Most people that complain about it are scorned they aren't able to participate in it themselves.

The whole point of ultimate was to be a special fight that only the highest of skilled players in this game would beat. The clear and the weapons were rewards and status symbols of that. They aren't worthwhile in themselves, since you beat the content with much less. If you start selling runs, you wear away at the point of the fight. I mean, the idea of a game in general is you rise as far as your skills allow and whether you are casual or hardcore, you take pride in that. Selling content sort of destroys this motivation some by introducing the same inequalities in the real world into the game. You can't honestly cheer an ultimate weapon on when you wonder whether or not the person bought it, or the person chose to sell access to it.

It's not a matter of jealousy; even if i could i wouldn't do it. I don't think games work that way or should work that way.

if you scratch a cynic, you get a frustrated idealist.

[Penthea]

Most people that complain about it are scorned they aren't able to participate in it themselves.

No I think most are against it because SE's official stance is that it's a bannable offence but the impression is they're doing nothing about it.

[CreinCrein]

The point of the fight was to provide a challenge for raiders craving for intensely difficult content; the weapons and title are secondary to the experience. They're cool trophies yes, but you're underestimating how easy it is to determine if someone bought a clear or not through FFLogs and other sources. If you're booked as a buyer that trophy quickly becomes a mark of shame to a lot of people. Also, the amount of people playing this game with the disposable income necessary to purchase these runs is a subset of a subset of a subset; not one large enough to completely devalue the worth of the rewards.

"No I think most are against it because SE's official stance is that it's a bannable offence but the impression is they're doing nothing about it." - We should start cracking down on ACT too, nothing's being done about it either. :smirk: