selling wins

[Sebazy]

Very rarely does this happen. Sells are all about reputation and repeat customers.

This

I wound up being one of the regular healers for a particular sales team on my server (again, only ever for gil). Reputation was absolutely everything, we had very strict rules both in conduct and in ability too. If someone couldn't do the kills cleanly and consistently, they wouldn't stay in the team for long. Multiple wipes were a disaster in our eyes. Running off with someone's gil was absolutely unthinkable and would have ended us as a team right there.

A fun side note to the reputation thing. Back in 2.0 my FC even went as far as doing various PR stunts on Titan including having a WHM tank and Bikini armour. Fun times =(

[Penthea]

Making this comparison really does show you have very little idea of how the raid scene works.

I think it's safe to say that person has little to no contact with the raid community. They talk as if RMT is very commonplace among raiders and tries to compare using a free damage meter to buying a boss kill for several hundred dollars. It seems they have this idea that most raiders are a lawless breed of players with no moral compass.

At this point I wonder if they're even playing the same game as the rest of us.

[RiyahArp]

You do realize you're comparing a free tool which displays damage numbers and calls out mechanics with buying content clears for hundreds of dollars; over a thousand if it's Ultimate, yes? .

The point of the comparison was how attitudes of a playerbase can change from "it's against TOS" to "we're ok with it." It's not trying to compare the two in harm; the way player attitudes change about something is that it starts top down. There's a certain saturation point when it becomes unable to be contained, and that varies based on a lot of things. But the point is that it's never really a only 1% issue; the 1% filters down.

Even if people do report advertisements in PF, literally nothing will happen because SE's own policies prevent them from enforcing anything. You could sit with PF open for an entire week, reporting the same few people with advertisements where it's obvious real money is being traded and nothing will happen to those players. In fact, I reported someone on my server who is a known bot, and very obviously brought his bot alts into Eureka. Still botting away. SE does nothing. That contributes to general apathy on the subject

This isn't "SE will do nothing." Way, way too many raiders here don't see any harm in doing it at all. This is the difference. If you're angry at SE that's cool, they deserve the blame. But please, be angry at the sellers too. Nothing is forcing sellers to sell runs in this game; they choose to do it for their own gain. there's no ethical need to sell clears in this game.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The point of the comparison was how attitudes of a playerbase can change from "it's against TOS" to "we're ok with it." It's not trying to compare the two in harm; the way player attitudes change about something is that it starts top down.

That attitude changes because initial perceptions of what ACT did were inaccurate. Regardless, people may have more indifference towards selling runs, but it will never become widespread. Unlike parsers, you need both players with enough skill to consistently kill Savage and Ultimate content, and a large enough pool of people willing to spend hundreds of dollars on it. You simply aren't going to see thousands of people spending that kind of money on clears, especially in a game where gear becomes irrelevant every six months.

[RiyahArp]

Unlike parsers, you need both players with enough skill to consistently kill Savage and Ultimate content, and a large enough pool of people willing to spend hundreds of dollars on it.

Not that innaccurate, considering how people use triggers. I'm wondering if the recent change to show ability names in pvp is a result of people using act triggers or a similar program to what they used with titan's gaols in ultimate. There's also the big grey area that exists in general due to parsers as a gateway to client modification culture; nude mods, reshade, dat hacking ability names, etc.

As for the selling..Bourne, you know you are an advocate of the game stepping up its difficulty some in general, being perceived as being too easy. That easiness in part helps keep selling runs down, because there's not any point where required content is too hard for players to beat, or too time consuming. Mercing in general would be a direct response to the things you want implemented in game, and its important that the culture isn't primed or too willing to deal with it. And with rl money there's a big incentive to get people to do it.

[Penthea]

The point of the comparison was how attitudes of a playerbase can change from "it's against TOS" to "we're ok with it." It's not trying to compare the two in harm; the way player attitudes change about something is that it starts top down. There's a certain saturation point when it becomes unable to be contained, and that varies based on a lot of things. But the point is that it's never really a only 1% issue; the 1% filters down.

The comparison still doesn't work.

The only prerequisite to get a parser is to have a pc. It costs nothing but hard drive space. It costs zero gil or real cash. You don't even need to raid or play with anyone else to use it. There is no skill threshold for using a parser. You can be the worst player in the world and still use one. You can use a parser as much as you like and if you tell no one you have it, no one will know that you do. This is also applicable to mods that edit how the game is displayed to only the player, such as reshader mods.

If you want to sell boss kills you first need to be a very skilled player who is part of a very skilled raid team who can reliably kill high end bosses with little trouble. An immense amount of time goes into becoming that sort of raid team. Most players don't have the time, the skill and the team to do that. So many things must align for killing high end bosses with relative ease to be a possibility. Even if everyone in the game wanted to sell high end boss kills, most of them will never have any to sell.

On top of that the entire team must agree to engage in RMT. If one doesn't, that's it the plan is on hold. And on top of that they need to find willing customers, and most players either prefer to earn something themselves or don't have several hundred dollars lying around doing nothing. Furthermore this cannot be kept secret because if you have something to sell then you need to advertise.

While both are against the terms of use, they're both radically different problems. One is just free software displaying information the game already has. You can't actually say it's illegal, it's merely against SE's terms of use. The other is basically selling content that belongs to SE for real cash when you are not SE. Selling boss kills is pretty much having your own Mog Station but with different products. It is against SE's terms of use and also most likely very illegal.

I understand your slippery slope argument but it's simply not applicable to selling boss kills. I strongly disagree with it, but I also understand that only a tiny percentage of players can even hope to be able to do it. A slippery slope can only happen if the majority of players can participate. This is not the case for selling or buying boss kills.

Again I emphasise that I agree that SE should take action against selling boss kills. I just disagree that the issue is comparable to parsing.

[Alleo]

I have no problem if people sell primal runs for Gil. But as soon as money is involved or its about a fight where you can only win if all 8 are top thus they need to pilot the others account, they have taken it too far. Selling it for money is RMT and using another account is also against the ToS. I kinda wonder if some of those top raiders are just angry that they get one Ultimate less because it means one less money input and if they want it stay synched so they can continue to sell clears..(And no I dont mean all top raiders, but those that sell them for money)

Now I wonder if those that sell them and are in the world race are just doing it to get money instead of doing it for the challenge?

And selling PVP ranks is bad for the rest of us because that are less people that can get to the top thus less people that can try to get the mounts in the normal legal way..

[Sebazy]

Now I wonder if those that sell them and are in the world race are just doing it to get money instead of doing it for the challenge?

I’ll debunk this tangent right now. I’ve raided with a good portion of the world first team over the years and I can promise you first hand that they are not in this for the money. If they were, there are frankly far better options for players of their talent and motivation. The progression raid scene is upset about the lack of a third Ultimate because it means we face another massive raid content lull akin to the end of HW. But that’s a topic for another thread.

The real issue is not selling run for Gils, but selling runs for real money, wich is against the TOS

So I assume you’ll be just as up in arms when we get a thread about all those naughty TOS breaking Bards using perform to play content protected under copyright?

There’s no denying that the rules are there in black and white, but let’s not lose sight of the simple fact that they are interpreted in many different shades of grey by all levels of the playerbase. Anywhere from the aforementioned performing bard, through those using mods for their tumblr screenshots and onwards to those using various parsers, screencapture and other such software hooking into the client in some manner. Even those using colourful language amongst their trusted friends. Alas, it’s not for us to decide where the line is between bending and abusing the rules.

[Endeleon]

So I assume you’ll be just as up in arms when we get a thread about all those naughty TOS breaking Bards using perform to play content protected under copyright?

There’s no denying that the rules are there in black and white, but let’s not lose sight of the simple fact that they are interpreted in many different shades of grey by all levels of the playerbase. Anywhere from the aforementioned performing bard, through those using mods for their tumblr screenshots and onwards to those using various parsers, screencapture and other such software hooking into the client in some manner. Even those using colourful language amongst their trusted friends. Alas, it’s not for us to decide where the line is between bending and abusing the rules.

You sound pretty biased. Likening this issue with bards playing copyright music is such a strawman argument, you are really showing your hand.

[akaneakki]

You sound pretty biased. Likening this issue with bards playing copyright music is such a strawman argument, you are really showing your hand.

Not really. Breaking ToS is breaking it. Just because you are againts people selling content for gil, doesnt mean what you do with your bard instrument is ''legal'' in the game. Many people break the rules for playing copyrighted songs in the game. If you really want to be the guy who wants to talk about being flawless and not breaking any ToS, might as well bring that copyright music.

Engaging in RMT activity for $1200 USD is not the same as a young teenage boy playing a cover of Carly Rae Jepsen, "Call Me Maybe."

It is, because both are breaking the ToS. Just because you like doing it, doesnt mean you arent breaking the ToS. Its the same with mods. Many use them and it is againts the ToS. Just because you like it, doesnt you arent breaking the ToS. So yes it's exactly the same.