Can we talk about the elephant in the room - Permanent Bans from the Official Forums

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Ya see, the way to avoid any kind of punishment on the Official Forums is quite easy, you just never use them. Maybe someone will bring it up at a Q&A or fanfest about there being no actual appeal process for Forum Bans.

I've been here for 7 years and i'm still around. Just don't break the rules, its not that hard...

And I've had temp bans because people got upset with me during discussions. They were just as heated but they didnt get reported. I'm just not spiteful i guess.

[Iscah]

If this game and forums are to have such hard rules against players using language considered inappropriate and offensive, then I am very offended that there are several scenes in FFXIV where I am aggressively described by NPCs as a fatherless child.

Where did it tell you that? I don't remember ever finding a quest that even remotely brought up the WoL's background.

I think geekgirl may be deliberately over-literalising an insult there...

(Though to be pedantic it means 'illegitimate', not 'fatherless'.)



Again, context is important. If a character speaks to you aggressively and calls you an insulting name, they are not behaving in a way in which you should be speaking to people on the forum.

And if this is the sort of thing that Beckett was referring to earlier by the game using inappropriate language in "FATEs, items, quests" and not just certain characters' dialogue, then context becomes very important. Is it being used as an insult, or is the word being used for its actual meaning?

We have "bastard swords" in the game because that is an actual type of sword. (Wikipedia tells me they are halfway between a one-handed and two-handed sword.) And it is a fact, in the correct literal use of the word, that Haurchefant is Edmont's "bastard son" - which of course is not a remark on his personality.

Neither of these usages have any connection to using the word as a generalised insult for someone you don't like, which is when it becomes offensive language.

(As an aside, my 1964 dictionary doesn't mark it as a vulgar word for its correct use. It doesn't include the definition of it as a general insult. By contrast, the few "major swear words" I can think of are either omitted entirely or marked as vulgar or derogatory.)

And on a complete tangent, but I came across it while looking up sword terminology - I wasn't sure what Haurchefant's title "of the Silver Fuller" was meant to mean, but a fuller is a groove running along the centre of a sword's blade. Perhaps symbolic of something like "a noble soul despite his status"? With a precious metal in the centre of a 'lower' one. Or has this been properly explained elsewhere?)



Another word which people might be incorrectly seeing as offensive - and I only realised this because I remembered it becoming a debate on a different forum/fandom one time - is "Hell", which is used fairly regularly in its actual meaning as the opposite of Heaven.

I feel like this should be obvious in its context as being very different to using it as an interchangeable 'filler word' in a phrase like "what the ____" (for which there are plenty of milder alternatives), but from that debate I discovered that some people consider using the phrase "Hell on Earth" to describe a situation is 'swearing'. It is not. You can't substitute another word into that sentence.

(And I do have to wonder what they would do if the word ever came up in a church sermon. Either that or the people who see it as swearing regardless of context are non-Christians who don't ever come in contact with the actual meaning of the word, and have just been taught it's something you shouldn't say.)



I'm a little hesitant to post this, because by using the words (instead of dancing around them and making the post very awkwardly worded) I am trusting that they are acceptable within this context, and the moderators don't have a list of "words that get you banned no matter what".

I suppose if it gets deleted and you don't hear from me in the next ten days, you'll know what happened...

[Vnolan]

Ya see, the way to avoid any kind of punishment on the Official Forums is quite easy, you just never use them. Maybe someone will bring it up at a Q&A or fanfest about there being no actual appeal process for Forum Bans.

In this very topic

If you did something against the ToS, no, you can't appeal it, but then this topic was never about that. You people should make a new topic and ask for changes to what is considered a ToS violation and/or a change to the penalty system which could include removal of some previous penalties issued.

To be clear: I'm not protesting the rules of the forums nor am I stating that all bans were undeserved. But I think some of these mass historical bans need to be addressed.

I agree there absolutely needs to be some sort of appeal option for forum bans. The English community team just seems so trigger happy to hand out permanent bans instead of any sort of communication with players.

[Kirsten_Rev]

I think it's worthwhile for everyone to keep in mind just how absurd a permanent ban system is. Stepping back from the arguments about cultural norms, whether or not the ToS is justified, whether or not it's hard to follow the rules... it's kind of insane that bans are made permanent for anything less than the most egregious behaviour. There are people who have been banned since the ARR beta, which was close to six years ago. Someone could have gone from a rowdy high school senior to a college graduate starting their career and bringing a child into this world during that time, and yet still - they're banned from the OF, the door locked, the key thrown away.

This simply doesn't make sense. It means that someone who gets a warning or two literally has to walk on glass for years afterward, every single time they post on the forum, because guess what - it'll only take one more slip-up. One moderator having a bad day. One griefer getting a few friends to hit the Report button on old posts that you might not even remember posting. One post you quote that has a swear word you didn't notice. Any of those things happen... you're done. Forever. You don't even get a chance to say goodbye, if you were familiar with any of the people here.

It's not controversial to say that such a system is absurd and unfair. FFXIV is supposed to be better than this. Isn't this the title with a reputation for being forgiving? Yoshi-P and the development team bend over backwards to make sure as much content as possible is accessible to players of all skill levels. The community is consistently quick to defend people who are kicked unjustly from parties, not even given the chance to improve. And yet, the official forums are policed more harshly than any other online community I've ever been a part of.

Get rid of this stupid three strikes system. It works fine for baseball, but it's a terrible and lazy way to moderate a forum.

[Zeonx]

I wouldn't say the L word my cousin said it and was temp banned he didn't even direct it at anyone.

This is what my cousin said about these forums.
they have rules that they leave in the hands of the players, moderators do nothing but enforce after the reports, he says that they give players too much power in forums and these forums are on the same level as the FFXI allakhazam forums back in the day.

And everyone knows how that turned out, people left and went straight to FFXIAH forums, because players kept thumbs down and reporting getting people banned for the same reasons these forums are doing and sooner or later and it takes time will die also if nothing is changed.

He says they give a rule set to follow but don't want to filter out what they tell you not to do, then lets say one fly's over the admins head then some player comes across the old topic reports it even if its like 5 years old you get banned, its a perfect example of players having way too much power.

The same people who say hey follow the rules will be the last people in the forums but nothing to talk about then they to will leave, I mean you can say there are too many for that to happen but its that very same line that was used back in allakhazam days and it happen there.

Pattern reddit = ffxiah and forums = allakhazam mark my words one day its going to happen when friends start falling off forums that's when people follow.

[Elamys]

I think it's worthwhile for everyone to keep in mind just how absurd a permanent ban system is. Stepping back from the arguments about cultural norms, whether or not the ToS is justified, whether or not it's hard to follow the rules... it's kind of insane that bans are made permanent for anything less than the most egregious behaviour. There are people who have been banned since the ARR beta, which was close to six years ago. Someone could have gone from a rowdy high school senior to a college graduate starting their career and bringing a child into this world during that time, and yet still - they're banned from the OF, the door locked, the key thrown away.

This simply doesn't make sense. It means that someone who gets a warning or two literally has to walk on glass for years afterward, every single time they post on the forum, because guess what - it'll only take one more slip-up. One moderator having a bad day. One griefer getting a few friends to hit the Report button on old posts that you might not even remember posting. One post you quote that has a swear word you didn't notice. Any of those things happen... you're done. Forever. You don't even get a chance to say goodbye, if you were familiar with any of the people here.

It's not controversial to say that such a system is absurd and unfair. FFXIV is supposed to be better than this. Isn't this the title with a reputation for being forgiving? Yoshi-P and the development team bend over backwards to make sure as much content as possible is accessible to players of all skill levels. The community is consistently quick to defend people who are kicked unjustly from parties, not even given the chance to improve. And yet, the official forums are policed more harshly than any other online community I've ever been a part of.

Get rid of this stupid three strikes system. It works fine for baseball, but it's a terrible and lazy way to moderate a forum.

QFT. Saying the S word in a joking manner was enough to get me one temp ban and I got another after I got a little heated towards someone (no swear words involved) so at this point I'm basically just waiting for the day when I accidentally do something like that and get banned forever. And I'll always think about how that S word, not directed at anyone, was enough to count towards kicking me off the forums forever.

[Skivvy]

I wouldn't say the L word my cousin said it and was temp banned he didn't even direct it at anyone.

This is what my cousin said about these forums.
they have rules that they leave in the hands of the players, moderators do nothing but enforce after the reports, he says that they give players too much power in forums and these forums are on the same level as the FFXI allakhazam forums back in the day.

And everyone knows how that turned out, people left and went straight to FFXIAH forums, because players kept thumbs down and reporting getting people banned for the same reasons these forums are doing and sooner or later and it takes time will die also if nothing is changed.

He says they give a rule set to follow but don't want to filter out what they tell you not to do, then lets say one fly's over the admins head then some player comes across the old topic reports it even if its like 5 years old you get banned, its a perfect example of players having way too much power.

The same people who say hey follow the rules will be the last people in the forums but nothing to talk about then they to will leave, I mean you can say there are too many for that to happen but its that very same line that was used back in allakhazam days and it happen there.

Pattern reddit = ffxiah and forums = allakhazam mark my words one day its going to happen when friends start falling off forums that's when people follow.

Your cousin has some interesting ideas. Many thoughts and feelings that have no actual proof behind them. I've been quite critical of many things on these forums, about SE, the game, people's comments, and I'm sure I've had people annoyed with me, but somehow I'm still here. Following basic forums rules is not really difficult.

With that said, I have had a temp suspension as well. The word I used is definitely on the mild side, and I wasn't using it directly towards a person, but hey, got my suspension. In hindsight, it's pretty laughable, but this is SE's court. No sense getting in a huff and blaming SE when I know very well the word I used could be a problem.

Yes, I'm sure there will be plenty of comments that slip under the radar, but that doesn't give any of us reason to perpetuate bad behavior/language. I personally never report as I just don't care that much. I'm sure there are others who report at the mere thought of something offensive. Probably balances out for the most part, unless of course you have someone who really takes a disliking to you.

I think it's worthwhile for everyone to keep in mind just how absurd a permanent ban system is. Stepping back from the arguments about cultural norms, whether or not the ToS is justified, whether or not it's hard to follow the rules... it's kind of insane that bans are made permanent for anything less than the most egregious behaviour. There are people who have been banned since the ARR beta, which was close to six years ago. Someone could have gone from a rowdy high school senior to a college graduate starting their career and bringing a child into this world during that time, and yet still - they're banned from the OF, the door locked, the key thrown away.

This simply doesn't make sense. It means that someone who gets a warning or two literally has to walk on glass for years afterward, every single time they post on the forum, because guess what - it'll only take one more slip-up. One moderator having a bad day. One griefer getting a few friends to hit the Report button on old posts that you might not even remember posting. One post you quote that has a swear word you didn't notice. Any of those things happen... you're done. Forever. You don't even get a chance to say goodbye, if you were familiar with any of the people here.

It's not controversial to say that such a system is absurd and unfair. FFXIV is supposed to be better than this. Isn't this the title with a reputation for being forgiving? Yoshi-P and the development team bend over backwards to make sure as much content as possible is accessible to players of all skill levels. The community is consistently quick to defend people who are kicked unjustly from parties, not even given the chance to improve. And yet, the official forums are policed more harshly than any other online community I've ever been a part of.

Get rid of this stupid three strikes system. It works fine for baseball, but it's a terrible and lazy way to moderate a forum.

As far as things being a permanent ban after 3 strikes (or whatever the criteria is), I'm personally a bit mixed. On one hand I do understand that people can change. Especially during some of the more typical years of growth (teenage > young adult). But then on the other hand, people should know how to act by now. Is it really SE's problem that you didn't know how to control yourself and managed to get 3 strikes? They shouldn't have to baby sit their playerbase in that way. And if you get banned, you generally only have yourself to blame.

Perhaps they could start with a year suspension. Gives people time to cool off, do some maturing (maybe?), and then try again. If you manage to get yourself reported and banned again, maybe that time it can be permanent.

[Kirsten_Rev]

As far as things being a permanent ban after 3 strikes (or whatever the criteria is), I'm personally a bit mixed. On one hand I do understand that people can change. Especially during some of the more typical years of growth (teenage > young adult). But then on the other hand, people should know how to act by now. Is it really SE's problem that you didn't know how to control yourself and managed to get 3 strikes? They shouldn't have to baby sit their playerbase in that way. And if you get banned, you generally only have yourself to blame.

Perhaps they could start with a year suspension. Gives people time to cool off, do some maturing (maybe?), and then try again. If you manage to get yourself reported and banned again, maybe that time it can be permanent.

I think even then, there's an issue.

The sentiment you seem to be expressing - and forgive me if I've interpreted this wrong - is that there's nothing wrong with punishing repeat offenders, with a permanent ban if it's bad enough. I wholeheartedly agree. The issue with SE's three strikes system is that it doesn't accurately identify repeat offenders.

Because what is really meant by the phrase 'repeat offender' is a repeat *frequent* offender. Odd one-offs... well, it's virtually always a case of forgive and forget. SE's ban policies on the official forums don't follow this pattern, and that's why they're so problematic. Could you imagine if this was applied to a workplace?

"Well, Bob, you showed up late again today, so we're going to have to fire you."
"But I hadn't been late to work in over three years!"
"But you WERE late three years ago - and once more two years before that. We just can't handle it."

The world doesn't work that way. It's too exacting a standard to meet. And this isn't about SE having to babysit players, or people not being able to control themselves, either: it's about recognizing, and designing around, human nature. People have bad days. Moderators have bad days, posters have bad days. SE currently doesn't forgive this, and it's not a great business move. My boyfriend (I mentioned in a previous post he'd been banned) has shown significantly less interest in XIV since being permanently banned from the OF. He hasn't really embraced Reddit the same way. This forum was a significant part of what he enjoyed about XIV. Does it really make sense for SE to remove that because of a couple of widely-separated, marginal infractions? To push him closer to unsubscribing?

As an aside, do you feel like you're someone who warrants being banned from the OF? Because you've posted over 2500 times now, and gotten one infraction already. Odds are, over the next five years of XIV's lifespan, you'll get 1-2 more. Given that we've seen this system applied inconsistently before, resulting in bans after only a second strike (that was my boyfriend's case), you could be just one post away from never being able to participate here again. Does that really seem like good policy to you?

[Keddera_StormMoon]

Because what is really meant by the phrase 'repeat offender' is a repeat *frequent* offender. Odd one-offs... well, it's virtually always a case of forgive and forget. SE's ban policies on the official forums don't follow this pattern, and that's why they're so problematic. Could you imagine if this was applied to a workplace?

"Well, Bob, you showed up late again today, so we're going to have to fire you."
"But I hadn't been late to work in over three years!"
"But you WERE late three years ago - and once more two years before that. We just can't handle it."

Can we please refrain from false-equivalencies? Losing your means of income in no way equates to perceived rights or entitlements to express your opinion on a forum for a video game. I'm sorry, but this is just a huge pet peeve of mine. Such rhetoric does nothing to advance your argument.

From the standpoint of somebody pushing 50 who's watched too many communities I care about become toxic cesspools because moderators give far too many chances for people who are incapable or refuse to restrain themselves: I'm frankly fine with this system. Yes it sucks if it happens to you. But you know what? If I screw up enough that it happens to me, so be it. Mine or your membership to this forums is ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of the gaming universe. I haven't seen a forum this clean since the days I hung out on Cavedog's forums when Total Annihilation was big. If this is the price we have to pay for civility, then so be it.

[Skivvy]

I think even then, there's an issue.

The sentiment you seem to be expressing - and forgive me if I've interpreted this wrong - is that there's nothing wrong with punishing repeat offenders, with a permanent ban if it's bad enough. I wholeheartedly agree. The issue with SE's three strikes system is that it doesn't accurately identify repeat offenders.

Because what is really meant by the phrase 'repeat offender' is a repeat *frequent* offender. Odd one-offs... well, it's virtually always a case of forgive and forget. SE's ban policies on the official forums don't follow this pattern, and that's why they're so problematic. Could you imagine if this was applied to a workplace?

"Well, Bob, you showed up late again today, so we're going to have to fire you."
"But I hadn't been late to work in over three years!"
"But you WERE late three years ago - and once more two years before that. We just can't handle it."

The world doesn't work that way. It's too exacting a standard to meet. And this isn't about SE having to babysit players, or people not being able to control themselves, either: it's about recognizing, and designing around, human nature. People have bad days. Moderators have bad days, posters have bad days. SE currently doesn't forgive this, and it's not a great business move. My boyfriend (I mentioned in a previous post he'd been banned) has shown significantly less interest in XIV since being permanently banned from the OF. He hasn't really embraced Reddit the same way. This forum was a significant part of what he enjoyed about XIV. Does it really make sense for SE to remove that because of a couple of widely-separated, marginal infractions? To push him closer to unsubscribing?

As an aside, do you feel like you're someone who warrants being banned from the OF? Because you've posted over 2500 times now, and gotten one infraction already. Odds are, over the next five years of XIV's lifespan, you'll get 1-2 more. Given that we've seen this system applied inconsistently before, resulting in bans after only a second strike (that was my boyfriend's case), you could be just one post away from never being able to participate here again. Does that really seem like good policy to you?

If SE were to implement a 1 year suspension as the initial punishment for 3 strikes, then a permanent ban if you get 3 more, I'd be perfectly OK with that. I don't think a person deserves endless chances to prove that they can behave on the official forums of a video game.

As far as my own personal chance of getting more infractions - I'm not overly concerned as my posts don't tend to get too spicy. I also don't use that word anymore. However, lets say that I suddenly don't know how to contain myself in posts and I end up getting a perma-ban. I'd only have myself to blame at that point. I know that these forums are extra-sensitive, and if I keep acting in a way that is frowned on, serves me right.