[dev1032] Reducing class affinity across the board

[Abriael]

Improving class uniqueness seems to be an important issue for many, while retaining versatility seems to be a priority for many others. The two goals are partially conflicting, but I personally think they can be mediated in a rather easy way.

This solution is *not* an alternative to the pretty popular idea of adding uninque non-cross-classable abilities to improve class uniqueness by the way, but something I see as a complement to it.

At the moment class affinity is, from my experience, way too high (for the ones that aren't familiar with the term, class affinity is basically the percentage of potency each skill of a class has when used with another given class).
Similar classes (for instance THM and CON) can use each other's skills with basically the same potency, with the result that each THM and CON around the game is a THM/CON.
Even classes with "low" class affinity don't see the potency of the skills that drastically reduced, with the result that, for instance, as a Gladiator I can use a Heal spell from Conjurer (as long as it's single target), almost with the same effectiveness as a Conjurer.

That's why I would say that (instead of quite science-fiction-ish theories as scrapping the armoury system) class affinity needs to be drastically reduced across the board.

Even with very similar classes, the potency of a cross-classed spell should never be near to the potency of a spell belonging to the original class. So I would say that the maximum class affinity possible should be around 60-70%, with high affinity classes like COnjurer and Thaumaturge.

With low-affinity classes like for instance Gladiator and Conjurer, the maximum affinity possible should be much lower. Say 40-50%.

Of course the numbers listed here are empyrical and arbitrary, they're just for example's sake, and may differe from the final ones. They need to be balanced by the team so that cross classed abilities are not nearly comparable to main class abilities in potency, but don't become completely useless.

That would achieve a twofold result:
1: it would allow people to retain a sizable amount of versatility. A tank would still be able to heal himself when soloing, and support the main healer/increase his enemity when in a group.
2: it would encourage people to stick to their role. The same tank would definitely not be able, with radically weakened heals, to main heal in a group. His weaker heals would be relegate to a support/aggro role, pretty much like a paladin did in FFXI.

You can apply the above example to pretty much every class/ability combination.

Feel free to discuss and bring further suggestions.

[Alcide]

Totally agree, I think this goes in line with what I said in this thread

[Lienn]

OBS: Fix the dev tag. It needs to be at tag list and not at title.

I like the way affinity is right now. Its pretty balanced in my opinion. Also, the access to most skills from each class not only allows players to play the way they want, but also protect the classes from situations like we often saw in FFXI, where or you have a certain subjob or you are kicked from parties. Here the player can just play the way he wants. If he need a provoke, he isn't forced to rank up GLA...there are several options for him.

Only thing i really would limit about affinity is the usage of affinity traits to just one. I don't like the idea of someone using affinity traits of 5~6 classes at same time. I believe affinity trait is supposed to be your "subjob" here...its how you say what crossclass skills are more important for you.

[Dargoth_Draconia]

If they did that they need to allow you to buy those +affinity things multiple times at certain levels of the base class, and to get the highest possible affinity lets say for CON abilities and I am an ARC would be level CON to 50 and buy all the affinity up traits via guildmarks and even then at that point it wouldn't be 100% would be like 80-90% effectiveness.

[Spuffin]

OBS: Fix the dev tag. It needs to be at tag list and not at title.

I like the way affinity is right now. Its pretty balanced in my opinion. Also, the access to most skills from each class not only allows players to play the way they want, but also protect the classes from situations like we often saw in FFXI, where or you have a certain subjob or you are kicked from parties. Here the player can just play the way he wants. If he need a provoke, he isn't forced to rank up GLA...there are several options for him.

Only thing i really would limit about affinity is the usage of affinity traits to just one. I don't like the idea of someone using affinity traits of 5~6 classes at same time. I believe affinity trait is supposed to be your "subjob" here...its how you say what crossclass skills are more important for you.

Dude wrong. Class Affinity is not balanced at the moment it is broken. Any class can be any class at any given time making every other class completely useless. That completely takes away from the game as well as uniuqness.

As far as FF11 goes the way they had it with the sub jobs was perfect. Imagine if you lvled Samurai to 75 and then you lvled every single class to 37 and put all of there abilities on the Samurai and now you have this WTF OVERPOWERED I CAN SOLO ANYTHING IN GAME job. FF11 sub jobs allowed you to pick ONE class to sub really only allowing you to use the ABILITIES not the over powered weapon skills of that class when it is 75.... and these abilities were capped at 37... If you sub warrior you are only utilizing berserking defender provoke and warcray... that is it... and stat buffs. That right there just enhances your class even further not turning you into a jack of all trades

[Abriael]

If they did that they need to allow you to buy those +affinity things multiple times at certain levels of the base class, and to get the highest possible affinity lets say for CON abilities and I am an ARC would be level CON to 50 and buy all the affinity up traits via guildmarks and even then at that point it wouldn't be 100% would be like 80-90% effectiveness.

80-90% seems absolutely excessive, and allowing people to get there completely defeats the purpose of reducing affinity in the first place. The lack of class uniqueness wouls rear it's head again exactly like it's now.

As far as FF11 goes the way they had it with the sub jobs was perfect. Imagine if you lvled Samurai to 75 and then you lvled every single class to 37 and put all of there abilities on the Samurai and now you have this WTF OVERPOWERED I CAN SOLO ANYTHING IN GAME job. FF11 sub jobs allowed you to pick ONE class to sub really only allowing you to use the ABILITIES not the over powered weapon skills of that class when it is 75.... and these abilities were capped at 37... If you sub warrior you are only utilizing berserking defender provoke and warcray... that is it... and stat buffs. That right there just enhances your class even further not turning you into a jack of all trades

I disagree.
1: in FFXI you could use abilities only from two classes. That's excessively restrictive and doesn't really reward those that leveled more classes, especially if, like many, they're interested in using only one as "main".
2: Limiting the abilities that can be used to a certain level looks and sounds extremely artificial. Reducing their potency so that they effectively are not overpowered, but just something nice to have to support your main ability is much more natural.
3: the FFXI way reduced the number of viable options radically, to the point that basically everyone had the same subjob for the same class. That basically completely voids the utility of subjobs, as SE could have just as well designed single classes and included the ability of the cookie cutter subjob in it. The armoury system increases the number of the viable options exponentially, promoting the use of different setups instead of the 1-2 cookie cutter ones without wich you couldn't even get a party in FFXI.

With reduced affinity there's absolutely no danger of turning characters in jack of all trades.

[Spuffin]

So what your saying is that if I want to be a good Archer... I lvl lancer to 20 then TRASH it because all I need is feint and invegerate. Then I lvl conj to 20 OR the next lvl of cure because it is extremely lame how I can heal just as much as a conj putting CURE 1-4 on a lvl 1-50 job, then I TRASH conj. Now I lvl pug to 16 for second wind and sneak attack then TRASH that class. I have no need to lvl glad and then I lvl Marauder to lvl 6 just for blood bath just for the hell of it and then i TRASH that class... (might has well toss raise on my archer too)

Now I have the most over powered melee class in the game atm combined with every single ability that makes every other class unique thus making all other classes pointless to lvl up any further. Now I can heal myself for 400-600HP and never miss while spamming weapon skills as much as my stamina will let me combined with every single class attack buff and accuracy buff further enhancing my WTF OVERPOWERED KNOCK ARROW THREE TIMES for 1k+ damage per arrow on the initial burst in which I can reknock ASAP thus giving me around 1.5-3k (I forgot that I have comrade in arms too) TP allowing me to toss out 2-6 weapon skills. Rinse and Repeat in a matter of seconds.

How is any of this fair let alone making the affinity system balanced?

[MysteryG]

I think they aughta just limit the amount of other classes you can draw skills and abilities from to 2-3 classes, cut the affinity. The goal should be a system that functions almost exactly like the subjob system in FFXI, but with more options and versatility.

[Spuffin]

I think they aughta just limit the amount of other classes you can draw skills and abilities from to 2-3 classes, cut the affinity. The goal should be a system that functions almost exactly like the subjob system in FFXI, but with more options and versatility.

Sounds like a CTRL+C+V of the FF11 Sub Jobs...

[MysteryG]

Sounds like a CTRL+C+V of the FF11 Sub Jobs...

...but with more options and versatility.

Didn't I say that?