Tank Stance

[BillyKaplan]

That depends on whether or not you actually let the tank know you forgot the skill.
Communication is important, otherwise it's impossible to tell apart someone who forgot to slot Diversion and someone who just plain wouldn't even use it in the first place.

While I generally agree, most really rotten apples will chew into me even after saying so, no matter that Diversion will be back on the hotbar as soon as the fight's over and I probably spammed Lucid... And that's assuming they don't Shirk me out of spite altogether.

[Ameela]

And that's assuming they don't Shirk me out of spite altogether.

If a tank shirked you out of spite in a 4-man dungeon they should really think twice about judging others for their cross-role skills :>

/sigh

I'm guessing your a warrior who just loves to dps. Frankly idc what you or other tanks do as long as they control enmity, try and get off your pedestal.

I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

[Paladinleeds]

I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

Solution: Delete Shield Oath, Grit, and Defiance. Make it so the only stance is DPS stance. Problem solved. No more tank-stance happy tanks.

(N.B. I am not being serious here)

[KisaiTenshi]

Removing DPS stance in group content will also cause issues in 8-man and 24-man content, as there can only be one Main Tank at a time. What about the OTs? Are they to just not use a stance? They aren’t needed in terms of main tanking, and usually exist for things like tank swaps, adds, shared busters, taking over in the sad even the MT dies (which may or may not even happen), or Provoke+Shirking. Why not let them utilitize a DPS stance since that’s the majority of why they’re there anyways—they aren’t main-tanking, so they might as well deal damage.

As for Cleric Stance, well considering they made healer DPS even easier with Stormblood (no need for stance-dancing; all healer damage scales off of MND now), they already realize that this is a playstyle a lot of players enjoy (which is why they removed it, aside from just making it easier overall). After you’ve established hate and healed all there is to heal, there is nothing better to do than contribute to DPS. You certainly don’t stand around; I don’t know how people can do that because I personally find it incredibly boring to just wait for people to take damage.

The developers intent is pretty clear. They removed Cleric Stance because it was not being used correctly, extremely error prone, not lag friendly, and was a large source of hostility and numerous "lazy healer/heal-only" arguments from players that use raider meta on all content. It was only supposed to be used for Solo play, hence why skills were balanced that way. So when they got rid of it, they rebalanced the healer DPS skills so that they're permanently nerfed relative to a DPS player, and thus playing solo content now takes twice as long, and things like Eureka and PotD are generally a pain to solo. MSQ solo content is balanced against a healer being able to clear it.

The Tank stance is different, the intent is to be able to tank swap. All 4-player content the tank should be in tank stance the entire time, by design. There are practical reasons why you'd want to turn off tank stance, and that is mostly due to overgearing. The tank storylines don't even need you to be in tank stance. For all intents you can play the MSQ exactly the same as a DPS player would, and it would be a faceroll due to wearing better gear.

SE has no way to "get rid of tank stance" like they would cleric stance, because then there would be no way to invoke the tank swap mechanic. Likewise, you can usually get past all trash mobs in duties without the tank by doing babypulls, and some bosses that don't have tankbuster mechanics can be tanked by the healer spamming their basic heal repeatedly, since they will have always have all the enmity without the tank.

What SE could do in the same idea of getting rid of tank stance dance is by removing the ability to switch out of tank stance unless their HP is full (switching into tank stance would always be possible.) That ensures that the player taking damage doesn't turn tank stance off until they've stopped taking damage and another player has taken enmity from them. But that's probably just more annoying than useful.

I said it because there aren't as many people who like it as you think. Yeah, the game is where everyone has to dps, but I don't think it should be said that it is attractive gameplay to a lot of people. Especially if you come from other games, this game's healing takes a bit of getting used to and is not one of its strongest points.

As for the tank, eh. I'm seen way too many primadonna tanks in DF; usually the first one to abandon anything is a tank, so I kind of lean to the OP a lot more. And again, Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others.l The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too in non-boss situations.

This is not a game where everyone has to DPS, that is just raider meta being taken too seriously. The design is pretty clear. Yoshi-P stated that they design every fight without healer DPS taken into account. They removed the bonus points with this intent as well, and the ability to put "wrong materia" on gear was also nerfed so that tanks can't be better DPS.

The worst thing this game did was come out with PotD with no role composition requirement. This has resulted in players being told to level in PotD by DPS zerging their way through the floors and not really being able to use more than their two basic DPS skills since the mobs are all made of tissue paper. Then when it comes to actual content, surprise, they have to do more than press two buttons.

If you're playing the roles as designed, the enmity reduction skills are things that you shouldn't need to use, because you only get to use them once then they're on a cooldown, where as the tank's basic skills all generate more enmity than DPS players basic skills. Hence they are designed for a mechanic where the tank can not get enmity immediately (Eg add phases), and not for the tank to sit there in DPS stance to minmax their DPS. If a tank is telling you to use your enmity reduction skills in lieu of them actually tanking, then the tank is a bad tank. The only bad tanks I run into are those that are undergeared, because, again, PotD.

That's why players need to be careful what they ask for, because if they get it, will come at the expense of a rebalance of their other skills so the net result is no additional DPS. I'm an advocate that players should be allowed to play their roles (eg tank, healer or dps) without having their arms twisted by players who want to minmax their dps. That means that actions that are designed for solo play are not be necessary during party play if players are actually playing their roles.

The minute you start telling players to play a role in a way they didn't sign up for, is the minute they stop playing that content, and hence why there is a perpetual shortage of tanks, and the number of actually good tanks is few and far between (the leveling queue is pretty much guaranteed the worst tanks from players who want to farm cracked clusters.) That minmax DPS meta does not work for tanks, and does not work for healers, and thus if you want a tank or healer in the party, just be quiet and take when you get from the duty finder.

[addz3]

You are totally right and we fully agree. However go back and read op's post again, what he was saying is: I met a bad tank in dungeon so just nerf the tank DPS stance and make all tanks play the way I want them to be...and if a dps (lol OP?) is bad at least he's trying to do his role and dps...badly (pathetic) and I don't care about others.

Huh? That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that ifvtank stances were changed we could get away with this must max dps over controlling enmity that a lot if tanks have (imo mostly warriors). Most of the time I tank, all 3 are maxed with 360 gear and I manage to hold hate and push dps as much as I can. Unfortunately some just prefer to see dps rather than fulfill their primary role. Secondly diversion isn't really the be all and end all for enmity control. It's like a 2 min CD isn't it? And any dps is going to out dps a tank, that's why they have enmity boosting combos and stances. If they aren't used then they are a bad tank. End off.

[addz3]

I have seen far too many tanks get killed in situations where the extra mitigation from tank stance would have saved them.
But nope, it's better to die than to compromise your damage output apparantly.

This is what I'm trying to say.

[Ameela]

If they aren't used then they are a bad tank. End off.

If you use it too much you're a bad tank.
There's very rarely a need to use your tank stance outside of your rotation, believe it or not tanks also have enmity boosting skills which can be used outside of tank stance and in Warrior's case are actually part of their main DPS rotation (which is why they end up being the best main tank out of the three).

Tank stance and aggro combos should be a last resort in case things go haywire, not a part of your main rotation.

[addz3]

Funny how you'll blame the tank for not using a tool in his job, but when the healers and dps don't use theirs, it's completely okay.

If you all did use your enmity controlling and still all had more threat then him, then yes it's his fault. If the dps doesn't diversion though, then they're liable to tank. ALL dps have access to some form of enmity control (Even BRD and MCH, even though they're meant for resource help.)



It's hard enough to convince me to even tank in the first place already, and the ability to max out my dps is what makes them fun and enjoyable when I actually do. Take that away, I'll delete my DRK alt on the spot, because you'd take the only reason I'd play a tank.

Not at one point have I said enmity isn't a group thing or that dps and healer weren't using their enmity abilities. They were as was I.


So you play tank to max dps? Excellent. Imo it sounds like you prefer dps and short queues, that's why you tank. And again imo that attitude is what's wrong with tanks who care more about dps than their primarru role. I have no problem with tanks who can do both, just those that sacrifice enmity control to max dps. It's not helpful for the actual dps to lose dps so the tank can knock out a bit. It's counter productive....

[addz3]

If a tank shirked you out of spite in a 4-man dungeon they should really think twice about judging others for their cross-role skills :>



I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

To much assumption on your behalf. Never said others weren't using their tool kit. Just the warrior

[Reynhart]

The Tank stance is different, the intent is to be able to tank swap.

Actually, I think the stances for tank were designed the same as Cleric Stance. Keeping a somehow low DPS in group content while not making solo content too tedious.

For tank swap, now that you have Provoke, Shirk, and no reason to ever use any enmity enhanced WS when you're not tanking, swapping is not really a problem even if both tanks use their stance.