Tank Stance

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This has probably been said a 1000 times but I'm going to say it again. I've just finished doma castle on the leveling roulette and have experienced some of the worst tanking in recent memory. The WAR would not use defiance for the last boss, and when I commented on that fact he says dps should use diversion!? Wtf. When both dps and healer are the top 3 enmity list maybe use the godamn tank stance. This is why you are here...

Context is important here. Assuming the tank pulled in Defiance and at least did Tomahawk/Heavy Swing + Equilibrium, they should hold aggro without issue unless the DPS aren't using Division/Lucid Dreaming or their gear isn't comparable. Bear in mind, this is absolutely a shared responsibility. Telling a Warrior to sit in Defiance because you can't be bothered to use Diversion is moronic. We're talking over 1,000 raid DPS throw away for literally nothing.

I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

I would like to ask SE to take out the dps stance for group play. NERF the shit out of it so it's mainly for solo play like cleric stance back in the day.

I hope you're ready to wait over an hour for DF queues because the overwhelming majority of tanks will never look at the role again. Without a focus on DPS, tanks and healers have nothing to strive towards. Mitigation, enmity and healing all have a threshold. Once reached, they are entirely redundant. Hence why people focus on their respective damage, especially Warrior. Make the game less damage centric, implement far higher outgoing damage—essentially reward defensive play, and people will adapt more readily. Of course, then you have lesser skilled players crying at how difficult the content is. Which is why dungeons are ultimately brain dead easy.

Save the rhetoric of dps = enmity and dps should manage enmity and all that. We've heard it all before.

Evidently, you were ignoring it. DPS lose literally nothing pressing Diversion, Lucid Dreaming or Refresh/Tactician. Tanks lose 20%. So no, I am not going to sacrifice thousands of raid damage because you're lazy. Now if the tank sucks despite you utilizing these aforementioned abilities, that's another story.

Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others.l The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too in non-boss situations.

Using Lucid Dream early, means it will be available earlier. A very common mistake healers make is holding onto it until they're nearly spent on MP, which is terrible usage. I will always get two uses from it unless I'm aoe spamming. As for Tactician, this is scarcely an issue outside boss encounters because tanks typically stay in tank stance longer due to massive pulls. Ironically, dungeons force tank stance more than even Savage due to pull sizes. Kind of ridiculous it takes upwards of 6-10 mobs hitting me before I actually need tank stance consistently active. And this only applies to healers who DPS. If they do nothing but heal, you can and should rotate your stance because the damage simply won't be high enough to kill you, assuming you know what you're doing.

..your healer doesn't have diversion, they have a tool that refreshes their MP, which they use to offset the expensive cost of aoe dps. if you force me to use it on pull, thats a waste and reduces my dps overall. Using tactician or diversion on pull is a waste cause you need it for bursts, and tactician is clumsy as hell...its prime purpose again is to offset the tp cost of aoe dps. I mean just click tank on while you run, you aren't dpsing the mobs any while you do it. Click it off while at the end of the pull, thats ok, but ugh, i might want to benison or tetra you during a long pull, and no tank stance can mean it comes back to me.

Use Lucid when your MP dips below 80% or thereabouts. If you actively DPS and don't stand around doing absolutely nothing, you will get the full benefit. And in what universe is Tactician clumsy? Quick Nock (Tactician) -> Quick Nock. If you can't do that...

Benison will not rip from a tank pulling, if you time it after they aoe a pack and keep going. You never Tetra during pulls. Not only is that a complete waste of an oGCD, you'll rip by virtue of overhealing for little to no reason.

If tanks were never meant to leave tank stance why would they have specific abilities they can only use while not in tank stance?

She means whoever has the boss' attention should be in tank stance. Or rather that was how the developers envisioned it. I actually believe her because even Xeno talks about how much flack he took for trying to optimize tank DPS as the MT back in ARR. Likewise, JP, apparently, took it as being disrespectful if the MT went into DPS stance or both healers were in Cleric because it was too risky for no reason. Of course, times have since changed and damage has long become the focal point due to, in my opinion, poor design. Healing is absurdly powerful, thus you simply don't need to play defensively. Likewise, content does pitifully low damage relative to the cooldowns available. Even Savage suffers from this to varying extents. Yoshida mentioned in a previous interview his disappointment so few Warriors want to use Defiance. To which I say, "Give me a reason outside bad players or Ultimate. And I will."

[NessaWyvern]

Eh, if the tank wasn't holding aggro, then he should have adjusted, and same with the healers and dps.
This is a team game after all.
For example, I heal more and dps less if dps stand in aoes. Is it the dps's responsibility to not stand in aoes? Yes, but healers can flex and make up for their mistakes. Healer over-healing (to be honest even with heal spams, I havn't been able to rip aggro in SB, when I could in HW), then the tank has to tank more, to make up for the healer's mistakes. Healer need mana help? Give them some mana with bard and rdm. Tank not using defensive cooldowns? Healers use shields (where applicable) and keep them topped up at all times. And of course, use emnity reducing abilities before/when you rip aggro from the tank.

That being said, a tank's primary role is keeping emnity. It wouldn't be good form for a healer to dps and let their teammates die because they didn't heal, so tanks should really make sure they are actually tanking the adds comfortably before switching to dps stance.

[kamenkuro]

I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

There are loads of bad players. I've mostly only ever met bad PLD's.

[Thoosa]

When I play warrior I tend to stay in defiance for monsters and go to deliverance for bosses so I can fellllll cleeeaaave.

I find if I swap more often with monsters I have to trust the healer and fight more for aggro as more often than not, the dps don’t bother to manage their aggro.

[Ameela]

snip

That depends on whether or not you actually let the tank know you forgot the skill.
Communication is important, otherwise it's impossible to tell apart someone who forgot to slot Diversion and someone who just plain wouldn't even use it in the first place.

[BillyKaplan]

That depends on whether or not you actually let the tank know you forgot the skill.
Communication is important, otherwise it's impossible to tell apart someone who forgot to slot Diversion and someone who just plain wouldn't even use it in the first place.

While I generally agree, most really rotten apples will chew into me even after saying so, no matter that Diversion will be back on the hotbar as soon as the fight's over and I probably spammed Lucid... And that's assuming they don't Shirk me out of spite altogether.

[Ameela]

And that's assuming they don't Shirk me out of spite altogether.

If a tank shirked you out of spite in a 4-man dungeon they should really think twice about judging others for their cross-role skills :>

/sigh

I'm guessing your a warrior who just loves to dps. Frankly idc what you or other tanks do as long as they control enmity, try and get off your pedestal.

I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

[Paladinleeds]

I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

Solution: Delete Shield Oath, Grit, and Defiance. Make it so the only stance is DPS stance. Problem solved. No more tank-stance happy tanks.

(N.B. I am not being serious here)

[addz3]

If a tank shirked you out of spite in a 4-man dungeon they should really think twice about judging others for their cross-role skills :>



I sure am, and if even half the tanks out there were as entitled and DPS-happy as me instead of getting pushed around into an unfun playstyle by people who can't be bothered to use tools at their disposal to help, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have a tank shortage in the first place.

To much assumption on your behalf. Never said others weren't using their tool kit. Just the warrior

[Ameela]

If they aren't used then they are a bad tank. End off.

If you use it too much you're a bad tank.
There's very rarely a need to use your tank stance outside of your rotation, believe it or not tanks also have enmity boosting skills which can be used outside of tank stance and in Warrior's case are actually part of their main DPS rotation (which is why they end up being the best main tank out of the three).

Tank stance and aggro combos should be a last resort in case things go haywire, not a part of your main rotation.