Tank Stance

[addz3]

Great reply. I mean those skills aka diversion, lucid etc are there for a reason as well. But I guess some people forget they have a purpose.

I'm afraid it wasn't a great reply because the poster hadn't read what I said. Their point is based on the war getting initial threat, which they didn't, which is why they suck.

[akaneakki]

Or just that they exist. I just ran into a sprout healer who had no idea what role actions even were. This game assumes a great many things about what its playerbase knows, and fails rather miserably in explaining them to begin with.
Tank stance, on the other hand, is inescapable. Assuming, of course, comparable ilvls across the roles. There's little an undergeared tank can do against an overgeared dps save to provoke off of them. Which is also sadly a role action.

That too, there is some serious lack of reading tooltips in this game too.

That too, there is some serious lack of reading tooltips in this game too.

and when I commented on that fact he says dps should use diversion!? Wtf. When both dps and healer are the top 3 enmity list maybe use the godamn tank stance.

which is why they suck.

I dont quite follow here, please explain.

[Vaer]

On another topic the intent for stances could be better defined. However when they have penalties of swapping between stances such as high mp usage for DRK or just simply a long cool down. Why would these exist if it was intended for tanks to swap continuously. It is my belief like others have suggested that it was designed so you have a stance in content and a stance for soloing. It isn't that way but that's a design aspect which could get changed down the line maybe. The min max dps for tanks has always been an "issue" and will probably remain

The intent for stances is somewhat for full party play. Usually there is the tank who is holding the boss, and the other tank(s) aren't tanking a large portion of the time so they can do DPS on the side without having to worry about generating large amounts of enmity. (They aren't getting hit frequently so there is usually no reason to be in tank stance)

In 24 mans dropping stances if in an OT position allows you to use abilities without generating the same amount of enmity as the MT. You ever been in a 24 man where all 3 tanks are spamming hate combo in tank stance? The boss just spins and cleaves people.

Some of the problems with the stances is

1) Stuff doesn't hit hard enough in the first place when adequately geared and decent use of defensive cooldowns.
2) The damage penalty on the stances is why people drop them. You can nerf the dps stance all day but as long as the damage penalty is on the tank stance and #1 isn't changed people are most likely still going to drop it unless they nerf it so badly that it might as well not exist.
3) The enmity bonus on the tank stance can be bypassed by optimal usage of enmity reduction skills like Diversion, Lucid, Refresh/Tactician and manipulation abilities such as Provoke, Shirk, and Shadewalker.

So ironically, them adding Shirk and enmity drop abilities to most classes just gave people even more reason to not use tank stance. They even added more enmity reduction to some jobs recently so the dev team definitely knows about this style of tank play.

[Melichoir]

Tanks generally open in their tank stance and drop it once they get aggro. They still have to maintain aggro of course, but its done through DPS. The DPS/healers should be using aggro dumps/mitigators to make sure they arent 1 on threat.

All that being said, a few things should be considered: If the tank is undergeared while the DPS are overgeared, you may run into a situation where a tank cant effectively keep threat in DPS stance. If thats the case, then yeah, the Tank should switch to tank stance. Furthermore, if youre pugging it and the DPS arent using their aggro dumps (which they should be), then if youre tank, best thing you can do is just use tank stance. Yeah, itll slow down the run cause the DPS arent doing their part, but if theyre always tearing aggro cause of that and it slows down the run, thats on the DPS then.

Its a two-way street. Both tank and healers/dps have to manage threat and be considerate to the other.

[Jijifli]

Not at one point have I said enmity isn't a group thing or that dps and healer weren't using their enmity abilities. They were as was I.

Your statement came off as that, but as I did say in the quote you took, if you were using diversion and still getting threat that quickly, then yes it's his fault.

So you play tank to max dps? Excellent. Imo it sounds like you prefer dps and short queues, that's why you tank. And again imo that attitude is what's wrong with tanks who care more about dps than their primarru role. I have no problem with tanks who can do both, just those that sacrifice enmity control to max dps. It's not helpful for the actual dps to lose dps so the tank can knock out a bit. It's counter productive....

I play tank on an alt, an alt played so little for content anyways that he still doesn't have a 360 weapon, and only one piece of mendacity gear. I already dislike playing tank most of the time, the ONLY thing it offering to me is the ability to maximize. I really, really don't care about queue time, because I can do money making crafting and gathering while waiting on it.

Also, as a bit of perspective, I've had plenty of runs on all 3 tanks where I am only in tank stance for the pull, do 1 enmity combo, and drop it for the rest of the fight, not losing threat. Hell, if things die so slowly, I test and don't do an enmity combo or tank stance at all. Funny enough, half the time I still somehow hold threat, even undergeared...

[Mixt]

Horror story time.

I was playing DPS, and as i was supposed to i used Diversion at the start of the fight.
Then Diversion ends, 90 seconds cooldown to go...and in that time i end up ripping aggro of the tank and dying.

The tank is all "Use diversion noob!"
Trying to explain that it's on cooldown gets a "I don't care!"
...How? It's on cooldown, how am i supposed to use it?

He just yells abuse at me for ripping aggro of him, while he is in DPS stance and refusing to use enmity combos or his AOE enmity generator, because they have lower potency so he will lose DPS if he does that.

I. CANNOT. USE. A. SKILL. THAT. IS. ON. COOLDOWN! How hard is that to understand?

Well, since the only way to avoid ripping aggro of him and dying is to not attack the enemy at all, i'll just do that then.
Then he yells at me for not attacking instead.
And the moment i go back to attacking i rip aggro and die, and he yells at me for that.
Well, what the hell am i supposed to do exactly?

The other DPS was having the same problem and also getting killed and yelled at.

[SinisterJoints]

No, I would say the warrior was doing a good job. Get initial threat. It's a party responsibility for aggro. All dps and healers have tools that they should be using to manipulate their aggro. That is how you play tank in this game, you get aggro, then you dps.

It's everyones responsibility to manage their hate. Including the warrior. The tanks job does not suddenly stop after initial threat. If they are getting hate ripped then they need to adjust as well. This is, obviously, if the dps are using diversion and healers using lucid and still pulling hate.

I run into this crap all the time with tanks. Bards get 2 hate reducing abilities. Refresh and Tactician and they are BOTH on a 3min CD. I will often have to use BOTH and then still rip hate because tanks think they dont have to contribute to enemity after they pull. Which is WRONG

The problem? Tanks think that because SKILLED tanks can do it then so can they. Which is not true...like at all.

When I tank in dungeons i stay in shield for adds (hello big pulls) and maybe 2 RH combos on the boss. Then switch to Sword, if I start losing hate guess what I do? I SWITCH , do a combo and switch back. It really is that simple. My job isnt to place +1 or 2 or 3 on the parse. My job is to make sure you dont take hate, and eat the busters. Its pretty simple

[SinisterJoints]

In this case, no it's not because her complaint is a result of the meta.

there is no "meta" for any dungeon in this game. Don't kid yourself. Go in, do the job you went in as, and leave. THAT is the meta...

[Ayer2015]

In this case, no it's not because her complaint is a result of the meta.

I would say it results from non-raiders taking advice from raiders on how to play the game. I would argue a lot of the complaints we see are a result of that.

[Jijifli]

Guys, just had a tank who couldn't do combo's properly in my expert, so I pulled threat in the instance.

Better make sure that can't happen again. We need to remove combo's from the game.