Are the developers of XIV out of touch?

[Vhailor]

FF14's needs to stop designing content for specific skill levels in an isolated fashion. It's an incredibly inefficient process and equally as juvenile. Grinds only artificially boost a given content's lifespan. When designing content they should be aiming to make each endeavor as robust as possible to offer multiple viable avenues of play.

I agree with the first part, not the grind comment here. Or rather, I think grinds, when well-designed, can organically boost content lifespan.

For example, let's consider the leveling process in FFXI, which was incredibly grind-y. The time investment came from three areas: (a) slow XP accumulation rates; (b) lengthy party-forming / party-finding process; (c) transit to party camps. That latter one, (c), is an example of an 'organic' grind that is quite healthy for MMOs. It's also one XIV has eliminated entirely: I can arrive at any point in Eorzea within three minutes, for a pittance of Gil. That's a problematically convenient feature.

Or, let's consider the gearing process in FFXI: this was also an 'organic' grind. By not showering you with gear for free, the game forced you to seek out different avenues of gearing, each of which had its own internal process. You could buy everything, which meant farming Gil; you could level Crafting to try to make your own (admittedly only really useful for second, third jobs, up to around the 40s); you could hunt specific NMs to get key pieces and alleviate any deficiencies elsewhere. There were options. Again, this is something XIV has eliminated entirely prior to level 70 for primary characters: the gearing is entirely automatic now until you're leveling an alternate job or aiming for end-game stuff.

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The way I view longer-term, grind-y content is that it's fulfilling. Throwaway content like XIV offers is the MMO equivalent of a can of soda, or a chocolate bar: they provide a hit of sugar and fun no matter what mood you're in, how hungry you are, etc. But in no way does it provide the fulfillment of tackling longer-term goals and challenges, the MMO equivalent of more difficult tasks like dieting or exercising. The payoff isn't even in the same league. XIV needs to offer more of this long-term, steadier, delayed - but deeper - satisfaction. The key to making it appealing, and not an artificial extension of the time required, is to remove some of the convenience associated with simply existing within the game world. Leveling should have more organic time sinks; transport should have a lot more organic time sinks; market participation should not be nigh unnecessary for people. There's a reason why I love when new Gathering / Crafting gear sets are released: it occupies me for weeks to self-craft them. I have to farm timed nodes, I need to snag Yellow scrip, there's some regular gathering and killing to do, I need to do some Aetherial Reduction. There's significant incidental grind to craft the materials. And, finally, a long-term payoff: BiS DoH / DoL gear that stays BiS for about six months. That's what is missing from other areas of the game, to me.

FF14's needs to stop designing content for specific skill levels in an isolated fashion. It's an incredibly inefficient process and equally as juvenile. Grinds only artificially boost a given content's lifespan. When designing content they should be aiming to make each endeavor as robust as possible to offer multiple viable avenues of play.

This is a good observation, and I agree wholeheartedly. But, I'd point out that 'robust' content for a large variety of players is going to necessitate long-term rewards that feature various levels of grind.

I know some players who loved aiming for the Centurio Tiger mount (the 3000 A-rank and 2000 S-rank Hunt Achievement reward). They need content that appeals to them, too, and they shouldn't have to invent it by leveling all the jobs the game has to offer. Myself, I don't want THAT level of grind, but I personally miss the grinds that XI offered, from leveling to Fishing to the Magian weapons that Abyssea introduced.

The one thing this will necessitate, of course, is horizontal itemization. Grinds are made worthwhile by the durable reward at the end: if you get your jollies from Glamours, fine, that's not so hard, but many people won't. I chased the Magian weapons in Abyssea because they were BiS for my BLM and WHM, and I knew they would be for the foreseeable future. I would never spend four months grinding for items that I knew would be nigh-invalidated two months later, bettered by something I could get on the cheap with Tomestones. So, SE needs to branch out more.

I'd rather focus on things that are not subjective you know? Like horrible designs that are broken and not really related to fun? And what you know ? that might actually be the problem with the fun.
Point is you find hunts fun? I sure don't yet some do. Do I need to say out loud remove hunts because they are not fun? Do we really need yet another POINTLESS thread were ppl are just arguing about what's fun and forget about terrible game designs?

That's why you should stop you fun as a metric. fun is subjective what's broken IS BROKEN and it's a fact.

Also starting to judge content base on one own sense of fun will inevitability makes your argument vitriolic against those who find it fun, as such Inculusivity is perhaps the best way to handle things

I think you have a good point here, too, Remedi. The problem I have with using 'fun' as a metric is that it biases an individual in two key ways: (a) they're inclined toward shallow, sugar-high type content, and (b) they're inclined to overlook serious implementation problems because they happen to find it fun on a personal level. It's akin to using public opinion to dictate (rather than inform) governmental policy: people will be biased by what 'feels good' rather than what works or what is fiscally responsible.

It's fine to use 'fun' as a design goal. In fact, developers always should: this is a piece of entertainment, after all. It's a necessary, but insufficient condition for success, and too many people don't remember the second half of that statement. So it's worth taking with a grain of salt. A certain percentage of the population will think almost anything is fun. There are other metrics that must be used as well to help sort out the wheat from the chaff: whether content is long-lasting; whether it appeals to a large group of the player base, rather than just some of the players (this is distinct from whether people are participating in the content); whether it's efficient to create for the development team; whether it fits within the game world; whether its implementation is smooth and unhindered by UI elements or some such. I too often see SE apparently ignoring these metrics, along with many on the forums, and I suspect that's part of why SE can appear to be so out of touch.