So about Summoner...

[Zerathor]

And yet you are comparing their damage, which considering the only place most people care about damage comparisons is in the meta, smells a bit like you are just trying to say whatever you can to make it sound like you are being fair, when you aren't.

OR you know, they could be noting that it's unfair that casters are shoehorned into playing smn, or else it hurts their selves and their group, and it's a little bit annoying.

As it stands there are two options:
-Smn has too much dps for the utility they bring

Or

-blm has too small of a dps gain (and only for SOME fights, it needs to be ALL) for the complete lack of any unique utility

I swear, smn mains are almost as bad as warriors when it comes to any other job trying to be competitive with them.

[RainDurell]

And yet you are comparing their damage, which considering the only place most people care about damage comparisons is in the meta, smells a bit like you are just trying to say whatever you can to make it sound like you are being fair, when you aren't.

I said enjoyability was my first criteria, it doesn't mean I don't care about how viable they are, I said it in order to explain why I play BLM over SMN.

[Dualgunner]

And yet you are comparing their damage, which considering the only place most people care about damage comparisons is in the meta, smells a bit like you are just trying to say whatever you can to make it sound like you are being fair, when you aren't.

Good weasel word, "most." Has a connotation of being a large number, but not specific, and therefore the claimant neither needs to back it up, nor is ever technically wrong.

Zerathor said what I basically wanted to say, but I'll add the RDM perspective too. BLM don't give enough damage to be above SMN, and RDM don't give enough support to be above SMN. It doesn't matter which of the two you play, you're holding the group back by not playing SMN, and not everybody finds SMN fun.

[Zerathor]

Good weasel word, "most." Has a connotation of being a large number, but not specific, and therefore the claimant neither needs to back it up, nor is ever technically wrong.

Zerathor said what I basically wanted to say, but I'll add the RDM perspective too. BLM don't give enough damage to be above SMN, and RDM don't give enough support to be above SMN. It doesn't matter which of the two you play, you're holding the group back by not playing SMN, and not everybody finds SMN fun.

I really wish i could add more for the rdm perspective of things, but I don't rdm at all. I think it'd be cool if rdm ended up losing a little of their raise power (maybe make ver'raise a 1 min cd instant cast) in favor for more bard'ish defensive/rdps boosting power or something, to maintain the title of a support caster yet be a far more viable group addition.

either way, all caster roles should be far more competitive than they currently are.

[Dualgunner]

As a RDM main, verraise is a cancer. I agree, if RDM could be more like the Bard or Ninja of the casters, having low DPS in exchange for high utility, I wouldn't mind at all.

BLM and RDM do need to be raised to SMN's level though I would say; nerfing SMN just puts double ranged back in and tbh double ranged is an annoying meta too. How they would do that for BLM is raising damage even more, so its personal damage is markedly superior to SMN's. For RDM...there are lots of ideas rolling around, but delete verraise*, remove Embolden's weird restrictions, perhaps modify mana generation so its bursts line up with the minute-to-minute trick windows, perhaps a mantra-like ability to help outgoing healing are some buffs I've heard that sound good on the face.

*put it on a minute long CD or something.

[Sunako]

As a RDM main, verraise is a cancer. I agree, if RDM could be more like the Bard or Ninja of the casters, having low DPS in exchange for high utility, I wouldn't mind at all.

Ofc you would not mind. If rdm would have ninja/dragoon level of dps utility it would become another ninja/dragoon/bard. Now think about it if you are random dps and wanna recruit party members, do you wanna take summoner that boost your dps 60 - 80 dps or do you take rdm that boost your dps 100 - 120. You are like not really big difference, but if rdm would boost your dps like 200 you would be like, wow my parse will look bad if I dont play with rdm. Thats why I think boosting utility for rdm is really bad choice. Majority of mch/bard not wanna play without dragoon because their dps numbers looks bad without it, even it not really affect their raid dps performance. Players are too much centered around fflogs.

[Dualgunner]

Ofc you would not mind.

Of course I wouldn't. It would be quite lovely to not be forced into being a Summoner because right now Summoner is all that and a bag of chips.

If rdm would have ninja/dragoon level of dps utility it would become another ninja/dragoon/bard

It has their level of damage. So right now it's ninja/dragoon/bard but without the support. Whereas SMN is more comparable to MNK; high damage with some party damage utility. They also do comparable damage.

Now think about it if you are random dps and wanna recruit party members, do you wanna take summoner that boost your dps 60 - 80 dps or do you take rdm that boost your dps 100 - 120.

Versus right now where you're a random dps where you want to take SMN because BLMs are a gamble of being absolute gods or absolute trash, and RDM from the best to the worst still couldn't keep pace with similarly skilled SMN.

You are like not really big difference, but if rdm would boost your dps like 200 you would be like, wow my parse will look bad if I dont play with rdm.

Actually no, I don't think that's a small difference at all. Your numbers went from 100-120 to 200 though, mind your exaggerations here because 60-80 vs 200 is a big leap compared to 60-80 vs 100-120. 40 extra damage per party member, using your conservative estimates, would be 280 party dps increase; that's almost an entire hypercharge RDM would have over SMN. So yeah, being able to buff the party would be a nice new place for RDM to sit.

Thats why I think boosting utility for rdm is really bad choice.

So what would you have us do or suggest?
Any DPS gains we ask for is encroaching on BLM territory. Any time RDM asks for DPS buffs we're met with "But you're the SUPPORT caster, not the damage caster."
When we suggest support buffs we're met with posts like this.
And no, "prog caster" is not something that I can stomach. It just means RDMs are forced to swap to BLM/SMN after prog, and BLM/SMN are forced to play RDM for prog, and that's not fair for anybody involved at all.

Majority of mch/bard not wanna play without dragoon because their dps numbers looks bad without it, even it not really affect their raid dps performance. Players are too much centered around fflogs.

It's human nature to see a leaderboard and say "Hey, I want to hit the top of that." Challenge is something a lot of people thrive on.

Remember that right now RDM is weaker than SMN by a very VERY large margin. In fact, in a few fights BLM is weaker than SMN. BLM and RDM need to be competitive with SMN, and that has to happen through buffs to the former two because right now the latter is strong enough to break into the meta. With respect to RDM specifically, its damage is down near Bard's and Ninja's, without the same level of support that they bring.

So I suppose the question comes back around: if they do the damage of a Ninja and Bard, why shouldn't they have the same level of support they bring?

[Sunako]

So what would you have us do or suggest?

I would rather boost rdm personal dps than boost their offensive utility.

[Dualgunner]

I would rather boost rdm personal dps than boost their offensive utility.

Okay. Now we're encroaching on BLM territory because the only thing BLM offers is damage, and now its competitors do near BLM levels of damage and both have utility. Balance is against BLM unfairly.

EDIT:

Decided to look up my RDM compared to one of my peers' SMN, out of curiosity (both logs were in the 88th-90th percentile):
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...fFcnB9ZRpT2q/2
Total contributed DPS: 751
DPS before contributions: 6,335
DPS after: 6,730

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...MW1cRKm3Qgzj/3
Embolden Contributed DPS: 316.2
DPS before contributions: 5,688
Total damage out: 5,609

Obviously there are other factors that go into this, as with any support, such as "How much do team members take advantage of the buffs?" However, based on at least one anecdotal comparison of high-level casters, it's plain to see SMN beats RDM out hard in both damage and utility.

[Dualgunner]

First, see my edit, second:

And also if players want to see summoner more punishing via movements ruin 2 potency should be nerfed and ruin 3 potency boosted. But that would nerf scholar at same time.

BLM and RDM need to be competitive with SMN, and that has to happen through buffs to the former two because right now the latter is strong enough to break into the meta.

I haven't (this patch) said that SMN needs nerfs.