So about Summoner...

[Dualgunner]

Verraise gives the job an identity because nobody is speed killing with SMN because it can rez and, it's illogical to attribute rez in a speed killing enviorment as the reason for why SMN is better than RDM in that enviroment.

Lol, okay what on earth? Who said that raise is why Summoner is better than RDM in a speedkilling environment? Summoner is better than Red Mage anywhere out of bleeding edge world first blinder than a bat progression because its damage dwarfs RDM's, to the point where numbers look comparable to a BLM's numbers, while at the same time providing damage utility on top of it.

That said, I'm not saying I want RDM to be competitive in a speedkilling environment. I would just like the ability to optimize further so I don't feel quite so far behind myself if I were to play a job I like less than RDM.

RDM's do have powerful utility, it's just not the utility that some want and thus should ask for something indicative of that, not nerfing SMN or overbuffing RDM

If we're going to argue subjective value of verraise, I get about as much use out of it as I would a SMN's raise, because my group wipes up in order to understand prior mechanics better before working forward through future mechanics. Sure, I could zombie us forward and we could "see" mechanics further on, but the group would be on the back foot trying to recover, and no meaningful progression will happen.

Being able to spam raises also isn't anywhere near overpowered enough to be mandatory when there are just as many if not more Summoners clearing UwU (not to mention UCoB) and world first UwU was a SMN, not a RDM. For the most part, a Summoner is just as good in progression as a Red Mage, and they're just as good if not better outside of it.

The issue this thread is raising is Summoner is competitive both in progression and in speedkilling, whereas its peers are either only competitive in the former, or are competitive in neither. Before I'm accused of saying "nerf SMN," yes, I think SMN is in a good place because the caster role is fighting MCH and MNK for the fourth slot.

Now, if we're done talking about raise spam, which is an ability I don't think any DPS should have...

I'll repeat my stance:

Summoner is in a good place. It is in the area of balance that RDM and BLM should also inhabit. Red Mage needs a buff in the areas of lining its bursts up with raid cooldowns; an ability akin to Machinist's "Cooldown" would be ideal, as it would allow us to line up with everybody with every minute-to-minute burst. This would allow Red Mage to be able to optimize their damage outside of progression and bump their numbers up ever so much. This cooldown change is something Phenomena agreed with, also.

[Wayfinder3]

RDM being able to pick of rez without needing Swiftcast is also a very powerful trait, there are times where this could come up. SMN is really only better than RDM in farm and maybe clear runs. Brute forcing mechanics to have more insight is powerful regardless of the fact if your group doesn’t find it beneficial to them again the concept and idea is enough to give RDM some credit here

World first or even subsequent clears don’t tell you the whole truth. Many groups prog with RDM and switch to SMN once progression is over, phenomena even admitted that he does this, so for all we truly know, RDM could have more representation then the logs lets on.

[Wayfinder3]

I do agree that SMN is it a bit oppressive for RDM and BLM because it is doing both of what they’re capable of however do not misunderstand, RDM is a monster in prog and it’s unfortunate that logs don’t show the truth, it’s in a great spot as far as prog goes because it’s so good that it can allow you to push forward but is balanced enough so that SMN isn’t overshadowed and it monopolizes the prog scene.

SMN is really best as a prog late game sweep and it’s up to you what want to use after that. My problem is that the community believes that once they’re done progging RDM is useless because they need to start killing the boss faster or they need to hit higher numbers on fflogs where RDM ability to rez doesn’t increase your percentiles. It’s alot easier to look at logs and say “Smn cleared uwu/ucob just as if not more than RDM so it must be better for prog too” than it is to find out if said groups used a RDM prior to the kill.

[Dualgunner]

You'll have to forgive me for looking at the data before me, and making observations based on it. The way you're putting it, Red Mage isn't even a monster for progression: it's a monster for the first half, and then Summoner takes over and stays the mainstay for the rest of it. You'll also have to accept you're not going to change my opinions: raise spam is overrated, and having a DPS (not a support, not a healer, a damage-per-second) job balanced around its ability to scrape people up off the ground will never feel good.

That said, I have ceded that blatant potency gains aren't necessary either. An ability like MCH's "Cooldown" would work wonders in opening the job up for optimization alone.

EDIT:

Imagine my shock, SMN is the strongest job in Ultimate again.

[Wayfinder3]

it would allow us to line up with everybody with every minute-to-minute burst. This would allow Red Mage to be able to optimize their damage outside of progression and bump their numbers up ever so much.[/B] This cooldown change is something Phenomena agreed with, also.

Allowing manafication to give 3 free enchanted abilities would help the job to burst with all the buffs on the 2 minute mark, it’d even give them 2 full melee combo’s in a pot window since their mana gauge wouldn’t be expended upon using their combo and give their AoE a lot more urgency instead of having to get to a reasonable amount of gauge than doubling that value. Maybe allow Holy/Flare to be AoE to give RDM some nice options when facing 2 enemies where moulinet won’t be as good.

Consolidate Jolt 2 and impact pls, im dying for this as a controller player. That cooldown idea is kinda neat

[Wayfinder3]

You'll have to forgive me for looking at the data before me, and making observations based on it. The way you're putting it, Red Mage isn't even a monster for progression: it's a monster for the first half, and then Summoner takes over and stays the mainstay for the rest of it. You'll also have to accept you're not going to change my opinions: raise spam is overrated,

That’s fine, like Phenomena said, it’s easy to quote data when you don’t know the circumstances around that data. You’re free to be ignorant of possibilities in favor of spreading inaccurate information that may do more harm to the caster balance than good.

Also fine, if you fail to see the value of being able to push forward and see more mechanics, learning more about a fight, catching raises when healers are being thrashed and swiftcast isn’t an option. That’s your right but it’s there and it happens. It’s not overrated, you’re just undervaluing it

[CecMiller]

EDIT:

Imagine my shock, SMN is the strongest job in Ultimate again.

I dont see the problem with this - SMN thrives whenever there are intermissions. Our burst is locked behind Aetherflow whose CD keeps ticking during those intermissions. We live and die by this ability. It'd be strange for SMN NOT to be top. Then something is really wrong. It's just how summoner is designed and also why it really sucks if they die. You lose bahamut and you lose aetherflow and your dps goes down like a rocket. It's all about that Aetherflow.

[Dualgunner]

That’s fine, like Phenomena said, it’s easy to quote data when you don’t know the circumstances around that data. You’re free to be ignorant of possibilities in favor of spreading inaccurate information that may do more harm to the caster balance than good.

Also fine, if you fail to see the value of being able to push forward and see more mechanics, learning more about a fight, catching raises when healers are being thrashed and swiftcast isn’t an option. That’s your right but it’s there and it happens. It’s not overrated, you’re just undervaluing it

It's just as easy to parrot Phenomena and spread misinformation as it is to quote data and be incorrect. The difference is, you cannot provide the numbers for the groups who progged with Red Mage, all you have to give me is "Well, it probably is happening."

Likewise, you're missing the value of mastering the mechanics everybody is dying to, and focusing your brainpower on not dying to the current set of challenges, before putting thoughts toward the next challenge. The idea of "finish chewing what's in your mouth before you take another bite." People were easily capable of progressing before Red Mage, and Summoner wasn't seen as some God Emperor of Progressionkind because it had a raise when Black Mage did not.

Allowing manafication to give 3 free enchanted abilities would help the job to burst with all the buffs on the 2 minute mark, it’d even give them 2 full melee combo’s in a pot window since their mana gauge wouldn’t be expended upon using their combo and give their AoE a lot more urgency instead of having to get to a reasonable amount of gauge than doubling that value. Maybe allow Holy/Flare to be AoE to give RDM some nice options when facing 2 enemies where moulinet won’t be as good.

Consolidate Jolt 2 and impact pls, im dying for this as a controller player. That cooldown idea is kinda neat

While I could accept either change, I would prefer the cooldown idea. The differences between your free combo manafication and the cooldown idea is the former puts the rotation even more on the tracks (you don't have to plot your way to a number that will handle a combo and be able to smoothly transition into a second one--the CD just does it for you), and the latter opens up opportunities to synergize with your team to push more out of your job.

I dont see the problem with this - SMN thrives whenever there are intermissions. Our burst is locked behind Aetherflow whose CD keeps ticking during those intermissions. We live and die by this ability. It'd be strange for SMN NOT to be top. Then something is really wrong. It's just how summoner is designed and also why it really sucks if they die. You lose bahamut and you lose aetherflow and your dps goes down like a rocket. It's all about that Aetherflow.

I mean, besides a meme, I assigned no value judgment to it, just pointed out that Summoner is top of the charts as far as Ultimate is concerned.

[CecMiller]

No probs, just making others understand that there is 100% nothing wrong with Summoner being rank 1 for ultimate. It's all due to the way the class is designed. The only thing I care about caster balance wise is never to have a situation like 4.0 RDM vs. SMN where SMN and BLM were complete dogshit and RDM was by far better - no contest. SMN was in a bad spot and only after repeated buffs has it attained a good position now.

I'd just echo what Elevation has been saying. SMN currently benefits from the fight designs for this raid tier. O6s is a better example of what the current dps rankings are and I'm fine with things as they are with a few classes getting a few touchups but nothing major. The game is decently balanced for dps at least.

[Wayfinder3]

It's just as easy to parrot Phenomena and spread misinformation as it is to quote data and be incorrect. The difference is, you cannot provide the numbers for the groups who progged with Red Mage, all you have to give me is "Well, it probably is happening."

That’s because I don’t have all of that information, so I’d rather not jump to conclusions when I only have information from a 3rd party website that doesn’t factor in any of that information instead of assuming RDM is getting curbstomped. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to find out if Smn truly is dominating then make a decision form there. Find some sort of way to contact these groups and inquire, or even just ask in general for those clears in savage.