So about Summoner...

[Wayfinder3]

This is a tool that's only so useful though, and its use can be just as easily overblown as it can be underappreciated.

Yes but you can’t give appropriate value to something based off of how niche it is. Verraise can work in or out of prog and this should be balanced around the idea of raising players with the greatest of ease. You can go into detail about mp but there are tools on other jobs that they’re balanced around to handle that. RDM is a victim of its utility, ask for them to remove it. Then RDM becomes a great value SMN or vice versa. A lot people like to pin verraise as a curse which it is but it’s also the only thing keeping the job relevant and, the casters relatively balanced.

i'll give an example, $25 in paper money is generally better than $25 worth of pennies however, thats only because of how convenient it is but, the $25 worth of pennies is still equivalent to $25 dollars in cash and thus demands respect regardless of how cumbersome or flawed it actually is to use $25 worth of pennies so, the value is the same but it's just less efficient. This is essentially rdm out of progression, it's less efficient and loses some value in that right but it can still function the exact same way and situations where it could work are still applicable unless you're speed killing where resurrection is completely irrelevant.

If RDM gets a buff and loses verraise or it is changed to function as a normal rez spell and it's not stronger than SMN. Do you honestly believe the job will be better off, if so. then what of SMN since these 2 jobs will now officially have the same EXACT niche. Verraise gives the job an identity because nobody is speed killing with SMN because it can rez and, it's illogical to attribute rez in a speed killing enviorment as the reason for why SMN is better than RDM in that enviroment. The only way verraise can be completely worthless is if you're in an environment where death in general is unacceptable and the only time that happens is during speed killing and, thats only applicable to less than 1% of the player base. This is pretty much what xxPheNoMeNais trying to say. RDM's do have powerful utility, it's just not the utility that some want and thus should ask for something indicative of that, not nerfing SMN or overbuffing RDM

[Dualgunner]

Verraise gives the job an identity because nobody is speed killing with SMN because it can rez and, it's illogical to attribute rez in a speed killing enviorment as the reason for why SMN is better than RDM in that enviroment.

Lol, okay what on earth? Who said that raise is why Summoner is better than RDM in a speedkilling environment? Summoner is better than Red Mage anywhere out of bleeding edge world first blinder than a bat progression because its damage dwarfs RDM's, to the point where numbers look comparable to a BLM's numbers, while at the same time providing damage utility on top of it.

That said, I'm not saying I want RDM to be competitive in a speedkilling environment. I would just like the ability to optimize further so I don't feel quite so far behind myself if I were to play a job I like less than RDM.

RDM's do have powerful utility, it's just not the utility that some want and thus should ask for something indicative of that, not nerfing SMN or overbuffing RDM

If we're going to argue subjective value of verraise, I get about as much use out of it as I would a SMN's raise, because my group wipes up in order to understand prior mechanics better before working forward through future mechanics. Sure, I could zombie us forward and we could "see" mechanics further on, but the group would be on the back foot trying to recover, and no meaningful progression will happen.

Being able to spam raises also isn't anywhere near overpowered enough to be mandatory when there are just as many if not more Summoners clearing UwU (not to mention UCoB) and world first UwU was a SMN, not a RDM. For the most part, a Summoner is just as good in progression as a Red Mage, and they're just as good if not better outside of it.

The issue this thread is raising is Summoner is competitive both in progression and in speedkilling, whereas its peers are either only competitive in the former, or are competitive in neither. Before I'm accused of saying "nerf SMN," yes, I think SMN is in a good place because the caster role is fighting MCH and MNK for the fourth slot.

Now, if we're done talking about raise spam, which is an ability I don't think any DPS should have...

I'll repeat my stance:

Summoner is in a good place. It is in the area of balance that RDM and BLM should also inhabit. Red Mage needs a buff in the areas of lining its bursts up with raid cooldowns; an ability akin to Machinist's "Cooldown" would be ideal, as it would allow us to line up with everybody with every minute-to-minute burst. This would allow Red Mage to be able to optimize their damage outside of progression and bump their numbers up ever so much. This cooldown change is something Phenomena agreed with, also.

[Wayfinder3]

RDM being able to pick of rez without needing Swiftcast is also a very powerful trait, there are times where this could come up. SMN is really only better than RDM in farm and maybe clear runs. Brute forcing mechanics to have more insight is powerful regardless of the fact if your group doesn’t find it beneficial to them again the concept and idea is enough to give RDM some credit here

World first or even subsequent clears don’t tell you the whole truth. Many groups prog with RDM and switch to SMN once progression is over, phenomena even admitted that he does this, so for all we truly know, RDM could have more representation then the logs lets on.