So about Summoner...

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Agreed, prog is the most important thing here. it's no suprise that rdm loses it's value after prog as time goes on. you don't keep your training wheels on after you've learned to ride. You also no longer crawl, once you've learned to walk. RDM is worse out of progression by that logic and no highly skilled player can argue that

I don't argue that, but I don't think that should matter for most people. Unless you're actually optimizing, damage numbers should not matter unless you're in risk of enrage. Beyond that, it's just this circle jerk of an fflogs culture that the raiding community has developed and everyone is concerned with numbers (granted I worry about that stuff, but I enjoy optimizing in raids and being "bleeding edge" so to speak. Not everyone is like me and that's perfectly fine, but if you're not then you shouldn't worry about why "x" class is better than "y").

[Wayfinder3]

I don't argue that, but I don't think that should matter for most people. Unless you're actually optimizing, damage numbers should not matter unless you're in risk of enrage. Beyond that, it's just this circle jerk of an fflogs culture that the raiding community has developed and everyone is concerned with numbers (granted I worry about that stuff, but I enjoy optimizing in raids and being "bleeding edge" so to speak. Not everyone is like me and that's perfectly fine, but if you're not then you shouldn't worry about why "x" class is better than "y").

Unfortunately it's too late for that now, i don't see any sort of change in the mindset of players unless they see it for themselves

[HyoMinPark]

Because what I'm getting from threads like this, is that the community wants classes to be balanced around their skill level rather than what these classes are capable of at the highest level of play (which is the true example of how strong or weak a class can be).

Then you haven’t been reading the threads I read: the threads I read advocate for balancing jobs at the 1%, not around the most casual of play. As it stands now, the developers do not balance jobs around Savage/Ultimate, but around every day content. Which is why some jobs struggle in Savage where utility is considered important in groups that want utility. I believe that even a few people posting in this thread said that jobs should be balanced around Savage content, not MSQ and dungeons.

You also missed where RDM mains have been asking to have Verraise removed and/or nerfed, as well as potencies for RDM reworked so that they are competitive personal damage-wise. There have also been talks about reworking Embolden. I suggest you go back and read some of these casters wars threads.

[Capn_Goggles]

Casters in general are in a pretty terrible spot just because of how oppressively strong physical DPS is, but their balance even against each other is simply all over the place. SMN has most of the utility, has more mobility, nearly matches BLM in personal DPS at higher levels of play, RDM has barely any utility outside of prog and its personal DPS is abysmal, and BLM is strong but suffers from the game simply not being built to support selfish DPS and necessitates thoroughly knowing the fight to optimize positioning.

I don't favor nerfing SMN because SMN sits where EVERY caster should be at, the issue is that BLM and RDM are utterly subpar in an already under-performing category, and I believe that saying SMN is "too strong" poorly frames the argument against summoner rather than in favor of BLM and RDM. In terms of job balance, there has to be a middle ground between casual play and 99th percentile insanity, because while savage content isn't necessarily the primary focus, it IS a part of the game that must be acknowledged and balanced around simply because it exists. Just because all jobs can clear content doesn't mean there aren't clear disparities both in performance and usability, and this needs to be acknowledged in order to further improve the quality of the game.

Or, simply put: unga bunga perfect balance impossible but trying still important.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Then you haven’t been reading the threads I read: the threads I read advocate for balancing jobs at the 1%, not around the most casual of play. As it stands now, the developers do not balance jobs around Savage/Ultimate, but around every day content. Which is why some jobs struggle in Savage where utility is considered important in groups that want utility. I believe that even a few people posting in this thread said that jobs should be balanced around Savage content, not MSQ and dungeons.

I don't typically read those threads because it's usually stuff like what this thread was made out to be. Claiming SMN was just the 2nd highest DPS class in the game (fundamentally wrong statement) and people agreeing with it. One person even saying "SMN is the strongest class in the game for me". That's EXACTLY the kind of perception that needs to stop because it's flat out wrong. SMN is a very strong class, but it is still beaten by at least 3 classes in terms of personal damage output and several in terms of overall raid contribution (personal + utility) at that top 1% level. It just so happens to have "good" personal damage with enough raid utility to make it a very strong choice.

The perception that I think exists however, is that SMN is just an "easier" class to play over BLM for example. Numbers wise, the two classes are extremely close to overall output, but BLM is a far more difficult class to play due to how punishing it is if you're subpar at the class. So SMN "appears" stronger because players can be subpar at it, but aren't as heavily punished for it and their numbers end up being higher. MCH is also a neck and neck race with SMN still.

You also missed where RDM mains have been asking to have Verraise removed and/or nerfed, as well as potencies for RDM reworked so that they are competitive personal damage-wise

Which RDM mains? Because I hear players like Jump or Howard talk about how RDM is fine where it is and doesn't need any significant buffs and these are two of the best RDM players out there (I don't know if they post on these forums though). These are players who play the class at that very top .01% and they're saying the class is ok. It's the lower end who seems upset that RDM is being disregarded (and wrongfully so) by the community based on some false perceptions. Now "if" SE were to buff RDM then yes they would need to remove their raise utility to balance things out, but that's assuming SE is even willing to entertain that idea.

[Wayfinder3]

I mean if jump and Howard would explain their reasoning for why they believe RDM is fine the way it is. At the very least the community would understand.

Also take into the account that both of these skilled players have great statics to support them so they really don’t suffer from the same issue that the remaining 99% of players who want to raid their main. Basically, the best players who have the best resources throw out information that the rest of the player base has to sort through. This is why People are focusing so hard on how bad RDM is all around and ignoring how powerful it for prog. Believe it or not for like the 5th time. “The will of the 1% does effect the remaining 99%, regardless of applications or circumstance.”

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I mean if jump and Howard would explain their reasoning for why they believe RDM is fine the way it is. At the very least the community would understand.

Jump has explained it, several times. Not sure if he posts here but he's explained it in other popular places, you were in the same discord where he typically discusses it.

Also take into the account that both of these skilled players have great statics to support them so they really don’t suffer from the same issue that the remaining 99% of players who want to raid their main

They don't suffer because they're both extremely good at the game, hence why they're in the groups that they're in. They also play multiple classes for raiding purposes (something I've spoken to you personally about). Jump will probably always be a "RDM main", but he still plays other classes if his groups asks him too. That doesn't make RDM "useless", it has its role and it's pretty well defined. Nothing is going to change the perception of RDM being a "prog job" either. You can buff RDM, and unless it's so strong that it manages to be speedkill worthy, it will always be a "prog only job" and continue to live in the shadow of w/e the meta is because that's what the community will blindly latch on to.

Basically, the best players who have the best resources throw out information that the rest of the player base has to sort through

We have the correct information because we actually take the time to comprehend it. We don't just randomly say "oh samurai sucks" just for the hell of it, we make these statements based on information that we can quantify to prove "why". Because for our purposes, that "why" matters. But for that 99% of the rest as you mentioned, it doesn't really matter unless you're actually struggling to meet a dps check in content (which should be a decreasing problem as SE continues to tune savage content to be more accessible and "easier" in a sense). If the community takes what we say and twists it into their own agenda, I feel as if that should be on them. Why should we be accountable because others refuse to take 5 minutes to understand why we don't play certain classes?

[Wayfinder3]

Unfortunately being good at the game doesn’t mitigate the Job bias that is currently in the game or at least for players who want to be good at it a certain job. Hats off to the top 1% Sam’s that are often locked out of parties. Exclusion is unfortunately the side effect that comes from this sort of information. It’s not their fault so don’t think I’m blaming you “1%” as you prefer to call yourself. I’m just saying their are very real side effects that fuel threads like this one even if the information isn’t exactly correct

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Again, better groups nowadays expect you to play multiple classes for your role. You can be a top 1% SAM player and still get chances to play it, but groups will also expect you to play another melee class like DRG or NIN because they'll want that too. My group expects me to play SMN (even though I still prefer BLM), but they also expect me to play RDM if needed, and even asked me to learn a physical ranged class. You can't expect a top speedrunning group to just willingly play with a class that is mathematically subpar when their goal is actually getting top ranked clear times. And exclusion on that level will ALWAYS happen because there will ALWAYS be an "optimal" comp. If you choose to be a one trick pony (more specifically on a class that is considered subpar), then you're just handicapping yourself.

If the community beyond that follows those same trends, that's an issue on their end with the fflogs culture I mentioned earlier. I don't see why we should balance classes just because the community has developed a severely misguided mentality regarding parse numbers.

[Wayfinder3]

My problem isn’t what speed killing groups want, being versatile is a powerful trait. It’s when party finder groups with no intention of doing parse or speed runs such as for progression wall out jobs such as SAM or BLM and I’ve even seen RDM walled out for weekly clears though I’ll admit that this is more so an exception.

Yes ideally you could just have a group, however my main issue is when job balance keeps you walled out of the pf and SAM especially is going through this. I guess you “could” tell that Sam to play something else so that he could get into the party. But that’s taking a 1% approach to a 99% issue. As I’ve stated, job balance goes much farther than organized play. Mr.Happy makes a video saying RDM is the worse caster, people eat that up, DeleteSAM becomes a community meme. People eat it and you’ll start to see this in casual scenarios too. This is the reason why people are generally upset with balancing choices because it can indirectly effect them.