So about Summoner...

[Wayfinder3]

And this is a community issue. People need to really understand how these classes compare to one another.

I think it's Naive to say that it's a community problem, it's highly unlikely that these same sheep claiming RDM and BLM are useless are doing the hard numbers for that information, they're just vomiting what the better players told them and couple that with the fact that SE doesn't always make their balancing decisions and the state of job direction tangible. Players will naturally leech onto what they're told. The solution would be the same as what caused the problem, But memes like DeleteMNK/SAM only make the problem worse.

And this goes back to my point about these "advantages" not mattering for 99% of the community. I've never heard speedrunning or world prog groups (including my own) complaining about the strength of Summoner and these are the only two instances where this would even matter. If you're not bleeding edge optimizing, there's nothing stopping you from playing RDM.

Even if these advantages aren't applicable to 99% of the community, it's rare that players will turn down any sort of advantage they could get. the only thing stopping RDM is the fact that SMN is generally viewed as better all around and thus RDM will (not always) be overlooked in favor of a SMN.

Just because you think in your opinion that players should ignore meta unless they're at the 99%, doesn't mean thats how they will act. Yes every job can clear content, every job is great in great hands. nobody will discredit that.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I mean, technically it is. Summoners cover emergency raises while simply doing more damage and having no limitation on range for outputting their full damage, making them more flexible. Once the raise isn't needed, Red Mage is inferior in basically all respects. Sure, the best red mages still leave me in the dust, but that's not a Mage v Mage thing. That's a me thing. That doesn't mean Red Mage is better than I think it is.

It objectively shouldn't lose value the better a party gets. It is the only job where this happens.

That's all. If the raise is the reason that can't happen, I'd rather scrap it, or just make it a proper emergency raise and compensate them for the loss of Verraise.

Butlikethat'sjustmyopinionman.jpeg

We can cover emergency raises if we have swiftcast. We're very limited in that aspect and outside of progression, we tend to use swiftcast offensively for optimizing rotations (pet swaps, etc), so our raise is kinda bad in that aspect. Without swiftcast, we lose far more raising than RDM does, and RDM can raise multiple times in quick succession.

Now beyond that, yes RDM loses a lot of value after progression when you don't "need" to raise as such. But it's not the "only" class that loses value after progression. WHM loses most of its value after progression, yet (well until these last AST buffs) people would agree that healer balance was in a good place even though AST was preferable for optimized settings. DRK can be great value in very specific situations, yet generally is disregarded over PLD because of its inferiority to mitigation like Cover or Veil. Pretty much every class in the game has its "niche" where it's extremely useful, and then a few that remain powerful. You're forgetting that BLM just dumpsters RDM AND SMN in terms of personal damage output, SMN only has the damage utility to bring it neck and neck in overall raid contribution.

And yes, the raise utility RDM has is why it won't (and shouldn't) receive damage buffs, because in one aspect of the game it would be absolutely overpowered if that happened.

[Wayfinder3]

Balanced compared to "what" though? Because what I'm getting from threads like this, is that the community wants classes to be balanced around their skill level rather than what these classes are capable of at the highest level of play (which is the true example of how strong or weak a class can be). Do people understand that "buffing" RDM or nerfing SMN would actually create another balance issue? Because RDM would be absolutely overpowered for progression as it was during deltascape... and so long as it holds the raise and heal utility that it has, it will NEVER have similar damage output to classes like SMN or BLM nor should it. Instead of complaining about "SMN being too strong" (which it isnt btw), people should be asking for a class rework for RDM because frankly the issue is the class itself and what they attempted to do with it.

I agree with this, though without all the sass. it's definitely true, rdm can't be buffed in anyway that'll be satisfying and nerfing SMN will only make MCH better for that 4th slot. SMN is the strongest caster all around but it isn't the strongest Job in the game, BRD and arguably DRG are alot closer to this with brd being a strong core for many teams and drg being their best possible support.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I think it's Naive to say that it's a community problem, it's highly unlikely that these same sheep claiming RDM and BLM are useless are doing the hard numbers for that information, they're just vomiting what the better players told them and couple that with the fact that SE doesn't always make their balancing decisions and the state of job direction tangible

This is the definition of "the problem" in my eyes. Taking the information we give (or what they see) and twisting it into "oh well this class is just bad". I mean yeah, sometimes a class is kinda bad (Samurai...) but we have a specific reason for why we personally believe that and it's due to the nature in which we play the game. I say Samurai is bad on the fact that it offers absolutely nothing for either progression or optimizing purposes while having lower damage despite this lack of utility.

Even if these advantages aren't applicable to 99% of the community, it's rare that players will turn down any sort of advantage they could get. the only thing stopping RDM is the fact that SMN is generally viewed as better all around and thus RDM will (not always) be overlooked in favor of a SMN

And this is really the idea I wish people wouldn't have. Yes there are some clear advantages with certain classes, but that doesn't mean you have to abide by it when it's really not important for most players. Making blind statements like "SMN is OP, please nerf" is fundamentally wrong, it's a strong class sure, but it's not overpowered. Too many people are concerned with numbers.

[Wayfinder3]

We can cover emergency raises if we have swiftcast. We're very limited in that aspect and outside of progression, we tend to use swiftcast offensively for optimizing rotations (pet swaps, etc), so our raise is kinda bad in that aspect. Without swiftcast, we lose far more raising than RDM does, and RDM can raise multiple times in quick succession.

you don't "HAVE" to use your swiftcast for the SC ruin 3 and you could hold it incase of a death. you're limited but you're still flexible in that way. Kinda like Vercure, i guess you could use it to heal up the tank or anybody else, but it comes at a loss to rdm dps. So it's not really that different, both jobs have to make sacrifices for utility. it's just a shame that it's rdm's core utility

[Wayfinder3]

This is the definition of "the problem" in my eyes..

Thats pretty much it, "in your eyes". it's not a problem in your eyes because you're sitting amongst the 1%, but the information that you guys leak can become gospel for those below you. so while it's not your problem. RDM is definitely in a position where it has to sweat even if it doesn't need to be in that position. Many groups are starting to lock their UWU progression slots to SMN because they value the damage situational rez over the cure and chain rez and, thats a valid reason to do so.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

you don't "HAVE" to use your swiftcast for the SC ruin 3 and you could hold it incase of a death. you're limited but you're still flexible in that way. Kinda like Vercure, i guess you could use it to heal up the tank or anybody else, but it comes at a loss to rdm dps. So it's not really that different, both jobs have to make sacrifices for utility. it's just a shame that it's rdm's core utility

For prog you want to hold swiftcast, but post prog we'd use swiftcast for optimizing things. Vercure is pretty useless post prog, but during prog if a healer is late on a heal (or dead) and someone just needs an emergency heal, Vercure can be extremely useful (I used it multiple times the few lockouts I played RDM in UWU). I can lose a gcd to keep someone alive in prog or let them die and potentially wipe for it. Easy choice

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Thats pretty much it, "in your eyes". it's not a problem in your eyes because you're sitting amongst the 1%, but the information that you guys leak can become gospel for those below you. so while it's not your problem. RDM is definitely in a position where it has to sweat even if it doesn't need to be in that position. Many groups are starting to lock they're UWU progression slots to SMN because they value the damage situational rez over the cure and chain rez and, thats a valid reason to do so.

And people should comprehend that information better and not just take it as gospel. Most good casters still praise RDM for its ability in prog, even if I personally argue against it at times I still understand the value it brings (especially early prog). If people are ignoring that then that's on them imo, but people should stop perceiving information incorrectly or thinking everything we do is important for them too

[Wayfinder3]

For prog you want to hold swiftcast, but post prog we'd use swiftcast for optimizing things. Vercure is pretty useless post prog, but during prog if a healer is late on a heal (or dead) and someone just needs an emergency heal, Vercure can be extremely useful (I used it multiple times the few lockouts I played RDM in UWU). I can lose a gcd to keep someone alive in prog or let them die and potentially wipe for it. Easy choice

Agreed, prog is the most important thing here. it's no suprise that rdm loses it's value after prog as time goes on. you don't keep your training wheels on after you've learned to ride. You also no longer crawl, once you've learned to walk. RDM is worse out of progression by that logic and no highly skilled player can argue that

[Wayfinder3]

And people should comprehend that information better and not just take it as gospel. Most good casters still praise RDM for its ability in prog, even if I personally argue against it at times I still understand the value it brings (especially early prog). If people are ignoring that then that's on them imo, but people should stop perceiving information incorrectly or thinking everything we do is important for them too

You're right, people should look for themselves. Alternatively the dev's could try to make their job balancing exploits more transparent. Explain why they make certain decision and what they've intended for jobs to do in relation to other jobs. I.e explain why disembowel is only on drg but it's so powerful for brd/mch. Transparency is what i think will at least mitigate this sheeping issue