So about Summoner...

[Wayfinder3]

But people continuously overlook (or simply dont understand) what the advantages of each class are and rather say "but look at parses, RDM is useless after prog", even though those numbers are meaningless for them personally. RDM still has a very clear advantage for progression raiding, and as a whole the balance between casters is relatively ok. Some of the very best RDM players (including Jump) continue to say RDM is in a good place and it has its role.

I think the problem is that even though, RDM has it's advantages, SMN is really just a jack of all trades. rdm is strong for progression, however it's not so strong that it dominates the prog scene which is good because we don't want jobs monopolizing anything. SMN seems oppressive because it's the best caster in FARM by the "communities" standards while still being a very solid choice for prog too.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

SMN seems oppressive because it's the best caster in FARM by the "communities" standards while still being a very solid choice for prog too.

And this is a community issue. People need to really understand how these classes compare to one another. The balance between BLM and SMN for example is very good imo. The problem however is that it's extremely difficult to play BLM optimally, so generally it "looks" like BLM isn't as good when in fact it's very close. Ultimate content is the only case where I would argue playing BLM would actually be true disadvantage. But a lot players would only say "BLM has no utility and SMN buffs my damage, BLM is bad". Then you have RDM and yes their damage is way off the face of the earth compared to the other 2 casters, but they also bring this special utility that is literally unmatched by anything else in the game.

And this goes back to my point about these "advantages" not mattering for 99% of the community. I've never heard speedrunning or world prog groups (including my own) complaining about the strength of Summoner and these are the only two instances where this would even matter. If you're not bleeding edge optimizing, there's nothing stopping you from playing RDM.

[Wayfinder3]

And this is a community issue. People need to really understand how these classes compare to one another.

I think it's Naive to say that it's a community problem, it's highly unlikely that these same sheep claiming RDM and BLM are useless are doing the hard numbers for that information, they're just vomiting what the better players told them and couple that with the fact that SE doesn't always make their balancing decisions and the state of job direction tangible. Players will naturally leech onto what they're told. The solution would be the same as what caused the problem, But memes like DeleteMNK/SAM only make the problem worse.

And this goes back to my point about these "advantages" not mattering for 99% of the community. I've never heard speedrunning or world prog groups (including my own) complaining about the strength of Summoner and these are the only two instances where this would even matter. If you're not bleeding edge optimizing, there's nothing stopping you from playing RDM.

Even if these advantages aren't applicable to 99% of the community, it's rare that players will turn down any sort of advantage they could get. the only thing stopping RDM is the fact that SMN is generally viewed as better all around and thus RDM will (not always) be overlooked in favor of a SMN.

Just because you think in your opinion that players should ignore meta unless they're at the 99%, doesn't mean thats how they will act. Yes every job can clear content, every job is great in great hands. nobody will discredit that.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I think it's Naive to say that it's a community problem, it's highly unlikely that these same sheep claiming RDM and BLM are useless are doing the hard numbers for that information, they're just vomiting what the better players told them and couple that with the fact that SE doesn't always make their balancing decisions and the state of job direction tangible

This is the definition of "the problem" in my eyes. Taking the information we give (or what they see) and twisting it into "oh well this class is just bad". I mean yeah, sometimes a class is kinda bad (Samurai...) but we have a specific reason for why we personally believe that and it's due to the nature in which we play the game. I say Samurai is bad on the fact that it offers absolutely nothing for either progression or optimizing purposes while having lower damage despite this lack of utility.

Even if these advantages aren't applicable to 99% of the community, it's rare that players will turn down any sort of advantage they could get. the only thing stopping RDM is the fact that SMN is generally viewed as better all around and thus RDM will (not always) be overlooked in favor of a SMN

And this is really the idea I wish people wouldn't have. Yes there are some clear advantages with certain classes, but that doesn't mean you have to abide by it when it's really not important for most players. Making blind statements like "SMN is OP, please nerf" is fundamentally wrong, it's a strong class sure, but it's not overpowered. Too many people are concerned with numbers.

[Wayfinder3]

This is the definition of "the problem" in my eyes..

Thats pretty much it, "in your eyes". it's not a problem in your eyes because you're sitting amongst the 1%, but the information that you guys leak can become gospel for those below you. so while it's not your problem. RDM is definitely in a position where it has to sweat even if it doesn't need to be in that position. Many groups are starting to lock their UWU progression slots to SMN because they value the damage situational rez over the cure and chain rez and, thats a valid reason to do so.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Thats pretty much it, "in your eyes". it's not a problem in your eyes because you're sitting amongst the 1%, but the information that you guys leak can become gospel for those below you. so while it's not your problem. RDM is definitely in a position where it has to sweat even if it doesn't need to be in that position. Many groups are starting to lock they're UWU progression slots to SMN because they value the damage situational rez over the cure and chain rez and, thats a valid reason to do so.

And people should comprehend that information better and not just take it as gospel. Most good casters still praise RDM for its ability in prog, even if I personally argue against it at times I still understand the value it brings (especially early prog). If people are ignoring that then that's on them imo, but people should stop perceiving information incorrectly or thinking everything we do is important for them too

[Wayfinder3]

And people should comprehend that information better and not just take it as gospel. Most good casters still praise RDM for its ability in prog, even if I personally argue against it at times I still understand the value it brings (especially early prog). If people are ignoring that then that's on them imo, but people should stop perceiving information incorrectly or thinking everything we do is important for them too

You're right, people should look for themselves. Alternatively the dev's could try to make their job balancing exploits more transparent. Explain why they make certain decision and what they've intended for jobs to do in relation to other jobs. I.e explain why disembowel is only on drg but it's so powerful for brd/mch. Transparency is what i think will at least mitigate this sheeping issue