So about Summoner...

[Sunako]

Raise isn't the biggest reason BLM is poor for progression; it's because of how intimately one needs to know the fight so they know where to stand to maximize their dps. A BLM who doesn't know where or how to stand will always do less dps than a SMN, and in a lot of cases even RDM.

I dont think that is the issue. In ultimate you die if you dont know the fight and you have hundred of pulls while practicing the fight. If you dont know where you have to stand after hundred of pulls, you are doing something wrong.

[Zerathor]

BLM have already get buffed like 200+ dps and summoner have get nerfed around 100 dps from UCOB. It does not matter even if blm is top dps, players want raise for ultimate progress. It not matter how much is your dps once you practice. It not matter if you mana become 0 and you can not dps. What matter is you can practice the boss mechanics little longer without 10 min warmp up every time. Nobody want BLM during progressing long fights like ultimate. As long BLM not have raise it is poor state in progress if you dont play with second caster. BLM is totally viable in ultimate, but nobody want it during progress.

How much dps is a raise worth? There is a value where it becomes an option to consider, but at the moment its nowhere near the value it should be. But its hard to say what it should be.

Either way, a group shield, or resist, or something, any kind of utility that would be useful. Any of that would be a viable option to give them. This whole concept of the "greedy dps" has turned into a flop on its worth. For blm and sam

[Sunako]

How much dps is a raise worth? There is a value where it becomes an option to consider, but at the moment its nowhere near the value it should be.

Raise is not worth of any dps. There is not single way how raise would improve your group dps performance. During progress any dps is not worth of raise. Think about if you could make practice party for ultima only without needing garuda/ifrit/titan phase at all. I mean if there would be practice mode. Would you rather take blm that have 1k more dps, but you have to start from garuda or would you rather take rdm with 1k less dps as handicap, but you can start progress from ultima and skip first 10 minutes? Because that is what raise theoretically is. You can practice more mechanics in single pull even after mistakes and that way progress lot faster.

[Dualgunner]

I dont think that is the issue. In ultimate you die if you dont know the fight and you have hundred of pulls while practicing the fight. If you dont know where you have to stand after hundred of pulls, you are doing something wrong.

Also in Ultimate there are very few places where you can raise and still push through for a clear--and one of those is an LB3 after Titan. Also worth noting BLM has to find a place to root down and play while the whole party comes up with strats around them, while SMN can adapt almost on the fly with the party.

Raise is not worth of any dps. There is not single way how raise would improve your group dps performance. During progress any dps is not worth of raise. Think about if you could make practice party for ultima only without needing garuda/ifrit/titan phase at all. I mean if there would be practice mode. Would you rather take blm that have 1k more dps, but you have to start from garuda or would you rather take rdm with 1k less dps as handicap, but you can start progress from ultima and skip first 10 minutes? Because that is what raise theoretically is. You can practice more mechanics in single pull even after mistakes and that way progress lot faster.

Problem with thinking like this is, from first raise, you're no longer progging, you're just watching mechanics. From first raise, the GCD to GCD muscle memory progression is done, unless you plan that exact death and raise every time, which you don't.

It would be more like "You can start at Titan for prog, but you have to start with two DPS dead, tank at low HP, and healers straining for mana."

I suppose I should cede right now that raise =/= end of that run's prog, however you're going to be progressing differently, because from the first raise you now have two people who are now off rotation who can no longer optimize for the fight with cooldowns both offensive and defensive.

[Neela]

Dude, all the posts I've seen you posting in this thread have very poor arguments/make no sense at all.
Stop embarrassing yourself.

actually this... and with every post u do Zera it shows more and more that your experience in raiding or caster cls at all are poor. your goal is to get blm in ultimate? thats why you bash and hate smns state atm? sorry to disappoint you but blm won't take that spot even if they cut smns dps by half. you are just salty that the fights aren't designed for a blms favor. its not about the res, nor the dps - its about smns mobility which kicks blms ass and your ego, nothing else. all your arguments about first clears, prog, dps, utility won't change the fact that blm wont be top choice for endgame (progress) - if you wanna flame someone flame se for the level design and not a cls who actually fits that design better than yours.

[Zerathor]

snip.

The more you reply the more clear it is that you actually haven't read anything at all in this thread actually. Or even bothered to look me up for that matter, yet claim I don't have experience with casters.

Also, mobility? It's mobility as the core reason smn > blm? I think it's clear who lacks experience in this argument between us, and I'll give you a hint: it's you.

But hey, it's nice you messed up and admitted we're right by acknowledging these fights are far more catered to smn than blm. So thank you for finally agreeing that there's a problem.

[TelosNox]

Mobility is only an argument, if we compare plain training dummy dps.
If we compare real boss fights then mobility already is contained in the measured dps. So there is nothing to complain if the real bossfight is balanced according to self dps + support.

And BLM has a good amount of mobility, it just has to be planned. BLM has 3x instant cast + 1x instant cast. He can teleport towards another player, he can teleport to his leylines and scathe is intant as well (yes it is a dps loss but better than nothing).

RDM has not a single GCD instant cast except from swiftcast which is needed to gamble for procs, so it is not for free use. Instead he has small repeating timeslots where he can move. This needs planning as well. No free running like BLM.

Yes SMN has the simplest way for free movement. But at cost of a small amount of dps and a big amount of mana if not timed with trance or bahamut. Usually SMN is NOT allowed to use swiftcast for dps, so he is able to raise. SMNs movement is not as OP as others think.

If not needed too often then BLM can move without any dps or mana loss just by timing swiftcast and sharpcast as needed or by using teleport.
RDM can move without DPS loss as well if he does not need to move very fast and can make several smaller steps.

So the only mechanics where SMN really has advantage with movement is if you have to move a lot and often in a small amount of time. In all other cases it is just different but not necessarily worse.

[Megguido]

Also, mobility? It's mobility as the core reason smn > blm? I think it's clear who lacks experience in this argument between us, and I'll give you a hint: it's you.

But hey, it's nice you messed up and admitted we're right by acknowledging these fights are far more catered to smn than blm. So thank you for finally agreeing that there's a problem.

Isn't mobility that makes SMN more suited to current savage and ultimate content ? Isn't the content "catered" more for SMN than BLM because it requires you to move ?

Also I don't get why you two are fighting like kids trying to argue who's dad is the best. "But muh DPS should be at the top at all times and SMN deals as much as me and they have TONS of utility". And yet you compare that to NIN and DRG.

First, SMN's party buffs are nowhere near NIN, DRG or BRD's level, but their personnal DPS is higher. A Trick Attack alone can bring more than 900 rDPS, DRG can bring around 1200 rDPS with two physical ranged. BRD's also around 1000 rDPS. Now if you consider all these raid buffs and you combine them with personnal DPS, you'll notice that SMN isn't the only one doing more DPS than a BLM. BRD, DRG, NIN, MNK, even MCH, contribute more damage than a BLM. Then, the difference between BLM and all the other jobs I listed isn't so huge it makes BLM unplayable at higher levels. Please consider that RDM's personnal+raid DPS is still lower than BLM. And yet they have much more ultimate coil clears than BLM for example.

[Zerathor]

I do see your point Sunako, and agree with it. I suppose an easier question would be, what kind of group defensive utility could compete with a raise? If you think that could be possible at all. Like say a group wide mana wall, which would soften defense cd checks, while also boosting LB. Or maybe a very long cd short duration boss debuff like Mini to act in a similar fashion to a stronger reprisal.

[Neela]

yeah it’s totally me Zera... totally ^^‘