So about Summoner...

[Sunako]

Raise isn't the biggest reason BLM is poor for progression; it's because of how intimately one needs to know the fight so they know where to stand to maximize their dps. A BLM who doesn't know where or how to stand will always do less dps than a SMN, and in a lot of cases even RDM.

I dont think that is the issue. In ultimate you die if you dont know the fight and you have hundred of pulls while practicing the fight. If you dont know where you have to stand after hundred of pulls, you are doing something wrong.

[Dualgunner]

I dont think that is the issue. In ultimate you die if you dont know the fight and you have hundred of pulls while practicing the fight. If you dont know where you have to stand after hundred of pulls, you are doing something wrong.

Also in Ultimate there are very few places where you can raise and still push through for a clear--and one of those is an LB3 after Titan. Also worth noting BLM has to find a place to root down and play while the whole party comes up with strats around them, while SMN can adapt almost on the fly with the party.

Raise is not worth of any dps. There is not single way how raise would improve your group dps performance. During progress any dps is not worth of raise. Think about if you could make practice party for ultima only without needing garuda/ifrit/titan phase at all. I mean if there would be practice mode. Would you rather take blm that have 1k more dps, but you have to start from garuda or would you rather take rdm with 1k less dps as handicap, but you can start progress from ultima and skip first 10 minutes? Because that is what raise theoretically is. You can practice more mechanics in single pull even after mistakes and that way progress lot faster.

Problem with thinking like this is, from first raise, you're no longer progging, you're just watching mechanics. From first raise, the GCD to GCD muscle memory progression is done, unless you plan that exact death and raise every time, which you don't.

It would be more like "You can start at Titan for prog, but you have to start with two DPS dead, tank at low HP, and healers straining for mana."

I suppose I should cede right now that raise =/= end of that run's prog, however you're going to be progressing differently, because from the first raise you now have two people who are now off rotation who can no longer optimize for the fight with cooldowns both offensive and defensive.

[Zerathor]

I do see your point Sunako, and agree with it. I suppose an easier question would be, what kind of group defensive utility could compete with a raise? If you think that could be possible at all. Like say a group wide mana wall, which would soften defense cd checks, while also boosting LB. Or maybe a very long cd short duration boss debuff like Mini to act in a similar fashion to a stronger reprisal.