So about Summoner...

[Wayfinder3]

I do agree that SMN is it a bit oppressive for RDM and BLM because it is doing both of what they’re capable of however do not misunderstand, RDM is a monster in prog and it’s unfortunate that logs don’t show the truth, it’s in a great spot as far as prog goes because it’s so good that it can allow you to push forward but is balanced enough so that SMN isn’t overshadowed and it monopolizes the prog scene.

SMN is really best as a prog late game sweep and it’s up to you what want to use after that. My problem is that the community believes that once they’re done progging RDM is useless because they need to start killing the boss faster or they need to hit higher numbers on fflogs where RDM ability to rez doesn’t increase your percentiles. It’s alot easier to look at logs and say “Smn cleared uwu/ucob just as if not more than RDM so it must be better for prog too” than it is to find out if said groups used a RDM prior to the kill.

[Dualgunner]

You'll have to forgive me for looking at the data before me, and making observations based on it. The way you're putting it, Red Mage isn't even a monster for progression: it's a monster for the first half, and then Summoner takes over and stays the mainstay for the rest of it. You'll also have to accept you're not going to change my opinions: raise spam is overrated, and having a DPS (not a support, not a healer, a damage-per-second) job balanced around its ability to scrape people up off the ground will never feel good.

That said, I have ceded that blatant potency gains aren't necessary either. An ability like MCH's "Cooldown" would work wonders in opening the job up for optimization alone.

EDIT:

Imagine my shock, SMN is the strongest job in Ultimate again.

[CecMiller]

EDIT:

Imagine my shock, SMN is the strongest job in Ultimate again.

I dont see the problem with this - SMN thrives whenever there are intermissions. Our burst is locked behind Aetherflow whose CD keeps ticking during those intermissions. We live and die by this ability. It'd be strange for SMN NOT to be top. Then something is really wrong. It's just how summoner is designed and also why it really sucks if they die. You lose bahamut and you lose aetherflow and your dps goes down like a rocket. It's all about that Aetherflow.

[Wayfinder3]

it would allow us to line up with everybody with every minute-to-minute burst. This would allow Red Mage to be able to optimize their damage outside of progression and bump their numbers up ever so much.[/B] This cooldown change is something Phenomena agreed with, also.

Allowing manafication to give 3 free enchanted abilities would help the job to burst with all the buffs on the 2 minute mark, it’d even give them 2 full melee combo’s in a pot window since their mana gauge wouldn’t be expended upon using their combo and give their AoE a lot more urgency instead of having to get to a reasonable amount of gauge than doubling that value. Maybe allow Holy/Flare to be AoE to give RDM some nice options when facing 2 enemies where moulinet won’t be as good.

Consolidate Jolt 2 and impact pls, im dying for this as a controller player. That cooldown idea is kinda neat

[Wayfinder3]

You'll have to forgive me for looking at the data before me, and making observations based on it. The way you're putting it, Red Mage isn't even a monster for progression: it's a monster for the first half, and then Summoner takes over and stays the mainstay for the rest of it. You'll also have to accept you're not going to change my opinions: raise spam is overrated,

That’s fine, like Phenomena said, it’s easy to quote data when you don’t know the circumstances around that data. You’re free to be ignorant of possibilities in favor of spreading inaccurate information that may do more harm to the caster balance than good.

Also fine, if you fail to see the value of being able to push forward and see more mechanics, learning more about a fight, catching raises when healers are being thrashed and swiftcast isn’t an option. That’s your right but it’s there and it happens. It’s not overrated, you’re just undervaluing it

[Dualgunner]

That’s fine, like Phenomena said, it’s easy to quote data when you don’t know the circumstances around that data. You’re free to be ignorant of possibilities in favor of spreading inaccurate information that may do more harm to the caster balance than good.

Also fine, if you fail to see the value of being able to push forward and see more mechanics, learning more about a fight, catching raises when healers are being thrashed and swiftcast isn’t an option. That’s your right but it’s there and it happens. It’s not overrated, you’re just undervaluing it

It's just as easy to parrot Phenomena and spread misinformation as it is to quote data and be incorrect. The difference is, you cannot provide the numbers for the groups who progged with Red Mage, all you have to give me is "Well, it probably is happening."

Likewise, you're missing the value of mastering the mechanics everybody is dying to, and focusing your brainpower on not dying to the current set of challenges, before putting thoughts toward the next challenge. The idea of "finish chewing what's in your mouth before you take another bite." People were easily capable of progressing before Red Mage, and Summoner wasn't seen as some God Emperor of Progressionkind because it had a raise when Black Mage did not.

Allowing manafication to give 3 free enchanted abilities would help the job to burst with all the buffs on the 2 minute mark, it’d even give them 2 full melee combo’s in a pot window since their mana gauge wouldn’t be expended upon using their combo and give their AoE a lot more urgency instead of having to get to a reasonable amount of gauge than doubling that value. Maybe allow Holy/Flare to be AoE to give RDM some nice options when facing 2 enemies where moulinet won’t be as good.

Consolidate Jolt 2 and impact pls, im dying for this as a controller player. That cooldown idea is kinda neat

While I could accept either change, I would prefer the cooldown idea. The differences between your free combo manafication and the cooldown idea is the former puts the rotation even more on the tracks (you don't have to plot your way to a number that will handle a combo and be able to smoothly transition into a second one--the CD just does it for you), and the latter opens up opportunities to synergize with your team to push more out of your job.

I dont see the problem with this - SMN thrives whenever there are intermissions. Our burst is locked behind Aetherflow whose CD keeps ticking during those intermissions. We live and die by this ability. It'd be strange for SMN NOT to be top. Then something is really wrong. It's just how summoner is designed and also why it really sucks if they die. You lose bahamut and you lose aetherflow and your dps goes down like a rocket. It's all about that Aetherflow.

I mean, besides a meme, I assigned no value judgment to it, just pointed out that Summoner is top of the charts as far as Ultimate is concerned.

[CecMiller]

No probs, just making others understand that there is 100% nothing wrong with Summoner being rank 1 for ultimate. It's all due to the way the class is designed. The only thing I care about caster balance wise is never to have a situation like 4.0 RDM vs. SMN where SMN and BLM were complete dogshit and RDM was by far better - no contest. SMN was in a bad spot and only after repeated buffs has it attained a good position now.

I'd just echo what Elevation has been saying. SMN currently benefits from the fight designs for this raid tier. O6s is a better example of what the current dps rankings are and I'm fine with things as they are with a few classes getting a few touchups but nothing major. The game is decently balanced for dps at least.

[Wayfinder3]

It's just as easy to parrot Phenomena and spread misinformation as it is to quote data and be incorrect. The difference is, you cannot provide the numbers for the groups who progged with Red Mage, all you have to give me is "Well, it probably is happening."

That’s because I don’t have all of that information, so I’d rather not jump to conclusions when I only have information from a 3rd party website that doesn’t factor in any of that information instead of assuming RDM is getting curbstomped. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to find out if Smn truly is dominating then make a decision form there. Find some sort of way to contact these groups and inquire, or even just ask in general for those clears in savage.

[Dualgunner]

That’s because I don’t have all of that information, so I’d rather not jump to conclusions when I only have information from a 3rd party website that doesn’t factor in any of that information instead of assuming RDM is getting curbstomped.

I'm pointing out that, when you don't have all the information, parroting people who sound like they know what they're talking about is just as bad--if not worse--than looking at whatever quantified information we have is, even if it's incomplete.

Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to find out if Smn truly is dominating then make a decision form there. Find some sort of way to contact these groups and inquire, or even just ask in general for those clears in savage.

Sure. In the end though, you'd have to pull it all into data, and then you'd still have people calling your data incomplete. It would be best if we had access to Square Enix's own logs.

[EllieShadeflare]

If anything, I would prefer that SE stops being scared of people potentially judging a pure damage job as "overpowered" and go whole hog with damage. Maybe 300 base potency Fire IVs are needed after all, even though I've been one of those sorts that have been against the idea since the start, preferring an improvement to Umbral Hearts. But this thread is about SMN, so I'm gonna try to remain focused on SMN for the rest of this.

Raise and Verraise are overvalued when you're not considering prog, since they don't add much and can still hurt a party to rely on it just as much as it helps them push forward. In dungeons, special Duties and in (most) 24-man raids, certainly, Verraise is a great support option that can keep players going. But even IN progging Savage will a party be boned if they rez too much. Rezzing too often will often reduce classes to the point that they can't get past DPS checks, and it's not a very pleasant sight to behold. If we could get past the idea that Raises are powerful enough to be deciding matters of balance, that would be wonderful.

That saaaaid. If SE is too cowardly to buff pure DPS jobs to where they ought to be by comparison, Summoner could easily receive a nerf... to its damage. Improve upon the buffing abilities of Devotion and Radiant Shield/Contagion, and you will find a job that matches BLM after the utility is said and done. And you know what? If Summoner's utility makes it match BLM's full damage in terms of contribution, that's okay. That just means that it'd still be a powerful job, just not the over-efficient job it is now. It'd allow Black Mages some breathing room and a chance to join in. Heck, I'd even be fine if SMN kept their AoE god status, since that'd be a niche they could do well.