Why are Statics so difficult sometimes?

[Sebazy]

Probably the biggest takeaway here is to keep praise public and criticism under the table. A lot of people struggle to take critical advice and feedback well, it's just a human nature thing. You wouldn't collar a mate on an evening out and tell him that he actually really does stink infront of everyone else and expect him to take it well. Coming down on someone's mistakes or shortcomings in a raid setting isn't much different. You simply do it quietly or you can expect bad things to happen.

The point at which you replace someone is much more subjective though. Personally I've got absolutely no time for repetitive inconsistency. Sure stuff happens, you get family/partner agro etc, one offs are no problem at all, but when it's every other raid day? I don't care if the reasons are legitimate or not. You're ruining and wasting 7 other people's evening so for the good of all, it's time to move on.

As far as skill goes? Some people take longer than others to learn and understand an encounter, so I like to be as leanient as the group's momentum will allow frankly. If someone's got a good attitude and at least understands that they are making a mistake whilst being willing to listen and be coached through it, then it's all good in my eyes.

[Crystal_Raven]

Use the same rule I have used for years regarding statics.

A member joins a static and proceeds to refuse to improve and insult each other? Out of the static. No questions asked, no debate, get out.

A static is not a democracy, there is always one player that stands above the rest either by purely having higher skill level or being experienced at running statics. Or both. It's only a game, but if you a person decide to refuse to learn anything and slow down the rest of the group, get out, you are no longer part of this static, I do not care if that person apologizes 300 times.

As another note, running with an FC static is the worst thing you can do. I don't even consider my FC as viable simply because I've seen how some of them behave and decided it is not worth my time and effort to organize vegetables who think being incompetent is ok.

You want a static? Find random strangers and jump in together. Years ago on a different MMO I needed a static, the FC was not an option because of their behaviour, so I went out and found random people. We didn't talk much between each other, everyone know their jobs, no one considered being incompetent was ok, the only option we accepted is for our skill levels to go higher and higher, nothing else was deemed acceptable, a close clear was terrible, smash the entire raid with little effort or it's no good, try again. With this attitude our group became known in the entire server.

The skill level required was innately higher in that game compared to this just from it's design. However, in this game it should be possible to find a static with all the players that refuse to accept any other outcome other than constantly gaining a higher skill level.

Don't treat the static as your family, or as your FC, or as your friends or anything. You are all there to do a job, if you as part of that static cannot perform your task, then you need to leave.

[TyrTry]

There are many helpful replies in this topic with a whole array of diverse ideas. Thanks to you guys, I'm able to create a better idea of what I need to do keep the static moving. Like I said, things are running more smoothly, and our biggest goal is to complete Ultimate raids.

[TyrTry]

Don't treat the static as your family, or as your FC, or as your friends or anything. You are all there to do a job, if you as part of that static cannot perform your task, then you need to leave.

Oh, I can understand an immature or not-savage-ready FC; been in my share of a few. The one thing I didn't want is for this to become another job, but we do have a goal to accomplish. If we can't accomplish that goal because of lack of skill, the nice thing about an FC is that we can train them (if they so desire). If it is gear, we can help them. Some of the members have pushed themselves to increase DPS and gear levels to help out to those who were already there.

[Erakir]

Then I would LOVE to hear the name of the MMO you played. I played WoW over 10 years ago, and if you tell me can walk into a raid with less skill ... then I know you're not being honest. Meta wasn't as "popular" seemly because the internet wasn't as active back then, but people still checked your gears, your enhancement. They also look at your numbers during the pull. Sure, you can sneak in large raid or casual like the 24men or Primal EX equivalent, but no way you gonna get a slot in stuffs like Heroic Raid without know your class inside out.

EverQuest. EverQuest raiding was vastly different than WoW raiding and can be seen somewhat in the design of Molten Core which was made by a lot of EQ developers as I understand it, where you didn't need all 40 people on the ball or with great gear to clear the encounters (this is just what I've heard, I only started in WoW just before BC came out and so my progression raiding in WoW started with Karazhan, which I love as an entry raid for a host of reasons).

EQ didn't have raid cap sizes for a long time, and when first implemented I believe it was....72? 60? I can't quite recall, it was just during Planes of Power - the 4th major expansion. There wasn't a "raid UI" system in place, period. People just formed numbers of groups, one of the groups would get the credit for the kill (most damage of all parties), and then the guild would work out loot since the corpse would become lootable by anyone like..5 minutes later or something like that. Yes, ninja looting was a very real thing as a result.

In EQ with loot not being tied to instances and instead tied to world spawns entirely, your raid force could be 30 people or 80 people, all depending on how comfortable they were with each other and how often loot would be available. It was self governing; it had to be. An extra person who was literally not causing wipes or trains was an asset, whether they did half the damage of your top DPS or not. If they were cool with the raid system your guild had in place, then it was cool. If you were a cleric and could hit a Complete Heal macro every 20 seconds, you were an asset. If you were a level...uh...was it 55? Mighta been....anyway, lt's say 55+ Mage you were an asset for Call of the Hero, let alone summoning Mod Rods and dropping them on the ground all fight.

To put this in perspective, we had someone who only played a cleric who was a long running joke. You could duck in EQ by pressing D, it'd interrupt any spellcasting and prevent you from casting spells. She was screaming in guild chat for 10 minutes in a fight about not being able to heal at all. Everyone told her she was ducking. Press D. She couldn't do it for around 10 minutes of that 30 minute fight.

She was an asset.

One guild on our server raided with 80-100+ people and had a "Gratz Brabak" system where every upgrade, no matter how big or how small to their main tank, went to him before anyone else. My guild didn't do that, we spread loot around based on a complex bidding system based off DKP. Very different approaches. We both were very successful at around the same progression level doing this. We were also known for having multiple people playing 2-5 characters at once, multibox style. We'd play each others' characters if a friend couldn't be there for a raid. You were still effective playing 3+ people easily.

Don't get me wrong, skilled players were great and all, but the hardest raiding in EQ did not require your raid force to be great. It needed a few people who knew how to spawn/pull stuff and to set up the basic strategy, then a bunch of worker ants....or a smaller total number of highly skilled players that could do more on the fly than overwhelm with attrition.

I raided Vex Thal for a long time on my Wizard knowing very little about the zone and playing Golden Sun 50% of the time. I was one of the strongest wizards in the guild at that time. Same with NToV.

Hell, I raided in Velious with my guild before I was LEVEL CAPPED and all I could contribute were tiny lure nukes. It was no big deal if I died, but me being there made the boss die slightly faster. I was therefore an asset, albeit a small one at the time.

I don't mean to detract from the rest of your post (honestly I have a lot I could say when it comes to experiences managing progression raiding from WoW), but early MMO raiding was a different beast than what WoW went towards with hard modes in WotLK and even before then with BC. The shift towards raid caps allows for much more finely tuned and interesting encounters, but also puts more emphasis on a minimal skill level for players - not that this is good or bad inherently, it's just an observation. This might be best evidenced by one of our longest running members from EQ who re-founded the same guild on WoW eventually having to retire playing as his skill level wasn't high enough for the harder modes they started introducing that we wished to progress towards. Was unfortunate to see him just slowly withdraw out of knowing that he couldn't cut it anymore, and stopped raiding altogether. He was about 50 at the time I believe and represented so much of what our guild was about, personality-wise.

[Liam_Harper]

Players and lack of flexibility compared to others MMO's. WoW have the same problem with Mythic raiding but thanks to how loot and raid size works normal/heroic experiences are far superior.

Aye, the biggest difference with other MMO's, like WoW, is that Mythic raiding and indeed progression content or any organized raids at all levels in general is seen as a FC activity, while in FF14 it seems Statics are often seen as something you ideally do outside of your FC.

I'm not sure why this is really, probably a combination of factors but it is a shame FF14 doesn't encourage FC progression more.

[RiyahArp]

EverQuest. EverQuest raiding was vastly different than WoW raiding and can be seen somewhat in the design of Molten Core which was made by a lot of EQ developers as I understand it, where you didn't need all 40 people on the ball or with great gear to clear the encounters.

FFXI raiding was also more slower and more about time commitment. It actually had the same problems as EQ, mostly because it copied a lot of the formula. The bigger problem is that they also started skill gating with chains of promathia, which led to Sea being underused, and a more casual (but still very hard) focus in the next expansion. But most of the core raids or things weren't as skill based as opposed to time based. You farmed a pop and then claimed a mob.

[Erakir]

FFXI raiding was also more slower and more about time commitment. It actually had the same problems as EQ, mostly because it copied a lot of the formula. The bigger problem is that they also started skill gating with chains of promathia, which led to Sea being underused, and a more casual (but still very hard) focus in the next expansion. But most of the core raids or things weren't as skill based as opposed to time based. You farmed a pop and then claimed a mob.

Aye I've heard similar. I can't fairly comment since I only ever got to around 60 in XI, but I know the endgame had a lot in common with EQ (especially when looked at through the lens of the modern MMO too).

I know EQ moved more and more towards what we see in WoW, too. More things going on with encounters, needed more awareness, etc. Not anywhere close to what we have today, but it shifted that way nonetheless. Certainly didn't start that way though, heh.

[Lunafreya]

I know what you mean. I actually really hate it when people dont show up and I would never lead a static for those reasons. I'm usually quiet during raid as I prefer concentration and in the event drama happens I dont want to talk to people that start it. Whether it's healing, dps, etc is just annoying. I play a certain way and that is the role of aggressive healer. I've been told a few times to change my playstyle and I refused and said this is my playstyle I'll only heal when there are checks up because there's no point in healing when no damage is going up. I dont really have to communicate this to my other healer as well cause we have different styles of play and that's clear. Some prefer healing and minimal dps. Some prefer dps and only healing for checks IE: earthly star. putting up shields, and only really healing when there's too much damage going on. A good healer understands when and when not to heal and when to dps. It became an issue in some of my groups sometimes and i'm glad I left those because I will never be told to adapt to x healing playstyle when my own is far better. Anyway, the best advice I could give you is to just get a new group or kick the person who started the excuses. Sometimes it is better to burn bridges for the clear but if the person is a close friend you'll need to talk it out with them beforehand and say they are letting down the group. Statics can be extremely difficult but savage isnt excatly impossible to pug as I got my first clears in pug every fight this tier.

[Penthea]

Don't treat the static as your family, or as your FC, or as your friends or anything. You are all there to do a job, if you as part of that static cannot perform your task, then you need to leave.

As another note, running with an FC static is the worst thing you can do. I don't even consider my FC as viable simply because I've seen how some of them behave and decided it is not worth my time and effort to organize vegetables who think being incompetent is ok.

I don't see how having a close relationship with the static members is automatically a bad thing. Maybe it wasn't a good experience for you but that doesn't mean it's going to be just as bad for everyone else. Raiding with friends or fc mates isn't always a direct ticket to failure and raiding with strictly business sort of people isn't always a direct ticket to success. Raiding is far too complex to have such a black and white view on it. There is a lot to be said about the sort of rules you have, the environment you nurture and the attitude towards it all. Statics and fcs can greatly differ from one another even if they share the same end goals because there are several routes to those destinations.

What I personally found to be a good route to success is to ensure everyone in the team has a similar vision in how they want to achieve that. Whether you're treating your team mates as if they're co-workers or if they're close friends, having the whole team agree on what they want and how to get it is one of the most important things in raiding. Without that the road is going to be very bumpy.