Why are Statics so difficult sometimes?

[HyoMinPark]

Because the static is so important that you need to take a stern hand with your friend, possibly to the point of kicking them, otherwise clearing this fight will be impossible. The whole skill threshold for this and organizational threshhold is so high, comparable to certain types of raiding, that you have to manage your friends as if they are working with you. In other mmos, it exists, but it seems to be much harsher here, comparable to the aforementioned pvp games.

I think this kind of game transforms the relationship badly, and players for some reason kind of default to "it's the players fault" in the sense that the static is more important or the goal is. The op is surprised that people are the way they are, but I always wonder why no one ever looks at the game itself.

Oh as for fun, eh.I meant it in the population sense, which affects the OP who recruited from his FC. If someone gives an excuse not to do something, there really are just two options if it isnt legit. They don't like it, or they don't like you. My bet is on the former, because usually, people who organize are pretty nice.

If you and your FC mate/friend/significant other are wanting to commit to a static with you, you have to learn to separate the personal relationship enough that it doesn’t negatively impact the relationship between the static members. I think of it similar to working with your spouse/running a business together with them: you have to make sure that your relationship doesn’t negatively impact the way the business functions. I have known a few statics that have been led by a person who let in their significant other, and the significant other caused a lot of drama in the static as well as not being on the same page as the other members, and the leader did nothing about it. Eventually, the static exploded because the other members got tired of it, and they left.

This is not to say I expect Savage to be the equivalent of a job—just that progging and clearing content like Savage (and Ultimate) takes a bit more work than the other content in the game. And if there’s trouble brewing within the group, it’s going to make prog (and even weeklies) feel more and more like a chore...which isn’t the purpose of a game. I have been in groups where there is drama and the like, where the leader didn’t want to do anything about it, and where members have not been on the same page, and it made me dislike running the content for a time until I found a more positive environment. You spend so much time with the people in a static, you kind of need the environment to be positive and healthy as opposed to negative and drama-ridden.

With regards to the OP, his problems seemed to stem from being afraid to have this stern hand as a static leader out of a desire to make sure he doesn’t hurt his friends. And while I understand that completely, you also have to think about what the “drama” is doing to the rest of the group. And the decision to kick/replace/have a stern talking to with the offender is never easy, and less so if they’re your friend. Which is why people are saying that being a static leader is hard to do, but maybe it’s easier to do if you’re doing it with strangers as opposed to friends. It’s a bit easier to be sterner with strangers than it is with your friends or your FC mates or your significant other.

I personally think it is more fun to raid with friends. But when you’re doing that, you have to make sure that everyone is on the same page, and that any budding drama is nipped in the bud very quickly. You also have to have a strong enough relationship that mild bickerments do not impact the static or the friendship, and the leader has to let themselves be a leader as opposed to always trying to be a friend to everyone. I have also known static leaders like that, and it never spells anything good for the group trying to be everyone’s buddy as opposed to making the tough decisions one has to make when they are in a leadership position (e.g., someone no-shows to raid for two months straight, and the leader refuses to kick them because they’re friends, and instead forces the group to PUG a member each week...which may or may not go smoothly; this is a true story). And it is also the reason why I do not want to be a static leader, because I would function very much the same, and I don’t think that would be healthy for the life of the group.

[Paladinleeds]

the leader has to let themselves be a leader as opposed to always trying to be a friend to everyone. I have also known static leaders like that, and it never spells anything good for the group trying to be everyone’s buddy as opposed to making the tough decisions one has to make when they are in a leadership position (e.g., someone no-shows to raid for two months straight, and the leader refuses to kick them because they’re friends, and instead forces the group to PUG a member each week...which may or may not go smoothly; this is a true story). And it is also the reason why I do not want to be a static leader, because I would function very much the same, and I don’t think that would be healthy for the life of the group.

This is why when I go to make a new static, I am employing a strict and equal 3 strike rule. If you hit 3 strikes I will say "Right, you're at 3 strikes now, GL in the future, I am kicking you." - I don't care if this makes me a lot of enemies (I have them in abundance in this game already, what's a few more gonna do? The stresses of the last static I lead which had friends in has resulted in problems showing elsewhere, and I have lost several friends over it (and am having to move realms once my house demolishes so I can get a clean break). This new static, I am not sure if I should try to remain friends with people who leave/are removed from the static, since I am scared of a repeat of what happened last time. Static members are simply colleagues. I am the manager, which means I have to take a zero tolerance approach.

[Jojoya]

This is just a game, which means it's going to be low down on the priority list for most people. It's hard to find people who can put a game higher up the priority list.

Working adult doesn't mean mature adult. Some people will say anything to get what they want, including agreeing to a commitment they know they can't keep.

You can't try to form a group around what's convenient for everyone else. Form it around what is convenient for you since as leader your presence needs to be guaranteed.

Be firm up front. Tell them after the second absence within a certain number of weeks, they will be removed from the group. A mature adult will understand that their repeated absences isn't fair to the rest of the group.

Don't obsess over people not spending time outside of the instance to learn the fight. A lot of people simply can't learn that way. They need to be doing the fight to get a feel for what's really happening. Don't obsess over wipes, either. That's how people learn.

If there are problems with individuals, talk to them privately as others have said. No one is comfortable having the dirty laundry aired in public and others in the group will start wondering if they're going to be next.

As for raiding with friends, it depends on the friend. If they can pull their weight and commit to the group like everyone else, it's not a problem. If they're going to try to play on your friendship for special favors, don't do it. I've got long time friends I would absolutely trust in a static group and others I wouldn't want to raid with outside of an occasional pug. You just have to try to use your best judgment.

[Raven2014]

Savage isn't fun for most people, and rather than tell you straight out it isn't fun and leave, they make excuses until it blows up.
I mena, ffs look at these answers. What kind of videogame or endgame is it where the best advice is NOT to do it with friends or guildmates?

Because the static is so important that you need to take a stern hand with your friend, possibly to the point of kicking them, otherwise clearing this fight will be impossible. The whole skill threshold for this and organizational threshhold is so high, comparable to certain types of raiding, that you have to manage your friends as if they are working with you. In other mmos, it exists, but it seems to be much harsher here, comparable to the aforementioned pvp games.

Base on these 2 comments I can say two things, you are either:

- Don't really play other MMO beside this game.
- You never really participate in the end game scene, and just commenting on it from the side.

This situation exists in every MMO. I had played WoW during the period of its first 4 expacks, I had played Everquests, I had played GuildWarII, I've been playing this game since 2.0, and if my experience to go by, this game actually have one of the most casual end game raiding scenes comparing to most of the other Western MMO. You seem to be making the assumption about playing with friends, or significant others is that you have to do everything together, it's not.

I remember back in WoW, I was part of a HC raiding guild. The thing is, most of us have some casual friends playing the game as well. So outside of raid nights, we hang out and chill with them. It worked well, for a HC guild, I remembered we rarely remove anyone from our raid group unless they left willingly due to real life situation, and my casual friends played with me all those years as well. Samething when I moved to GW2. And samething happening now in this game. The idea is you realize to maintain sustainable and healthy long term relationships, you have to at least have a few of these aspects:

- Having aligned interest.
- Mutual respect of each other times.
- Give each other their own space to maneuver around.

In fact, that kind of attitude of "being around each other 24/7 and do everything together" is not a healthy one, especially when the interest is not align. Ask yourself this:

-why hardcore group tend to be the most resilience groups? Most of these people have been playing together for years, and from the outside most of them also look like arrogant a-double-s elitist jerks? So how these jerks actually can stick with each others in an environment that assumed to be more hostile than most?
- On the other spectrum, you can also find groups that are so casual that never really able to accomplish anything, but still play with each others for years?

It's not your place to decide out of those two, one is having fun and the other isn't. I'm pretty sure they both have fun in their own way. The issue usually come from the groups that trying to mix-match those two types. It doesn't matter if you're talking about a gaming group, a circle of friends, or even members of a family. People naturally gravitate toward those with similar interest and goal, if you try to force the issue otherwise then you're just looking at a fallout in the making.


And btw, if you think managing a group in this game is hard when it has:

- Linkshell
- PF.
- 8men raid.

Not to mention modern ultility like Discord ...etc...
Try to imagine the situations in games like WoW back when the best VO were Teamspeak/Ventrilo, and the raid consist of 10-24-40 people with no PF or communication methods outside of guild chat. This game, like I said, is lot more casual friendly then most MMO out there.

[RiyahArp]

Base on these 2 comments I can say two things,

ive played other mmos, and have done raiding in ffxi. And the older games there never really was a need to tell your friend not to play ,because old school raids were more a function of time than skill. You just showed up in a group and worked out your role. There really wasn't the whole professionalization of the metagame in many earlier mmos.

And I've also seen what happens when one person chooses the raid over their friend.

The person who chooses the raid stops doing things with their friend. The raid takes up so much time and energy, that they don't really want to grind older stuff. The friend becomes more of a hanger on; they always compete with the raid even if they choose to not do it. Because raids really do take a lot of time.

Discord? lol. You end up on the raid discord, because you spend more time with the static and do things that are important to them.

I think a lot of people don't realize this happens until its too late.

[Sigma-Astra]

And I've also seen what happens when one person chooses the raid over their friend.

The person who chooses the raid stops doing things with their friend. The raid takes up so much time and energy, that they don't really want to grind older stuff. The friend becomes more of a hanger on; they always compete with the raid even if they choose to not do it. Because raids really do take a lot of time.

Discord? lol. You end up on the raid discord, because you spend more time with the static and do things that are important to them.

I think a lot of people don't realize this happens until its too late.

Somehow, I feel as if you're pitting one extremity that has occurred because you've seen it happen once and think it's the standard norm all of the time here.

[Raven2014]

ive played other mmos, and have done raiding in ffxi. And the older games there never really was a need to tell your friend not to play ,because old school raids were more a function of time than skill. You just showed up in a group and worked out your role. There really wasn't the whole professionalization of the metagame in many earlier mmos.

Then I would LOVE to hear the name of the MMO you played. I played WoW over 10 years ago, and if you tell me can walk into a raid with less skill ... then I know you're not being honest. Meta wasn't as "popular" seemly because the internet wasn't as active back then, but people still checked your gears, your enhancement. They also look at your numbers during the pull. Sure, you can sneak in large raid or casual like the 24men or Primal EX equivalent, but no way you gonna get a slot in stuffs like Heroic Raid without know your class inside out.

And I've also seen what happens when one person chooses the raid over their friend.

Like I said, being friends - real friends - is also about respecting each other needs. Being friends don't mean, or shouldn't mean the obligatory or possessive type of "we must be together 24/7 and do everything together". I have RL friends play various MMO with me, but they are very casual. They know I'm interested in end game, and they don't. But they know what are my raid nights, and they respect those time. But outside of that, we have fun, hang out and chill with each others. In fact, I bought a casual friend of mine in this game a house right across mine. We helped each others farming material for our workshop, talk crap in our personal link-shell ...etc... But at the same he's never one that you can take into an end game raid beyond EX - Primal, he doesn't have the commitment for it. We're been together since 2.0, and he's actually like the only casual in our niche group, with one other guy are even more HC then me. But this guy never once ask us "hey, can you take carry me in your raid because I want the loot LOL". Real friend, with real respect, don't do that to each others.

Because raids really do take a lot of time.

And this is, again, why I have to question your claim about your end game experience. It's very warped and skew. Do you know people in HC or even just MC groups tend to keep their friends really well? Because outside of the few week of progression, these people don't spend a lot of time in raid. For example this week my group clear 5-8 in about 2h on Tuesday. Guess what we do for the rest of the week? Running map, holding events, wiping in 24men, farming mats for workshop with our 'casual' friends. In fact, the people who actually have to spend a lot of time in raid are usually the casual people who don't have static and have to pug. See the oxymoron in your perception here?

Discord? lol. You end up on the raid discord, because you spend more time with the static and do things that are important to them.

Like I said, you ask most people who are in a cross-server static, we spent very little time with our actual static outside of raid.

I think a lot of people don't realize this happens until its too late.

No, what I don't think you realize is you're talking a lot of these base on your assumption prejudice, as someone who are actually in this, I can tell most of your views are either warped, or far from what the actual truth is.

[Jojoya]

Because raids really do take a lot of time.

During Cata and MoP in WoW I was raiding with the #2 and then the #1 guild on my server. When we were pushing hardest at progression, we were still never raiding more than 11 hours a week because real life just didn't allow for much flexibility in their schedules. Normally the raid week was 7-8 hours. I still had plenty of time for my friends that weren't raiding or even playing WoW.

It comes down to how many commitments you've got going simultaneously in your life and how well you've learned to manage your time.

Sometimes people refer to other people as friends when they really aren't. They're just people they know casually with a single interest in common and they don't associate outside of that interest. Once upon a time, those people would have been called acquaintances instead of friends but social media's insistence on labeling everyone as a friend has warped what friend used to mean.

As interests change, people with very little in common are going to drift apart. That applies to real life friendships as much as it does game friendships. We all change over time. Trying to blame a game for a loss of a friend is silly when the reality is the friend just had a change in interests.

[LalaRu]

When I faced issues as the OP mentioned, after a number of experiences and various tries, I found the best way is kick the most absent/busy IRL member as soon as possible.

It may be a friend, but if s/he cannot commit to even a minimal schedule because her/his own irregular things IRL, s/he didn't had to join in first place.

[kamenkuro]

Finding folks you mesh with is difficult. You're lucky if you do. You shouldn't fault people for not showing up. It's a soft removal. You can still play with us, just can't rely on you for raid. Of all the people that left the static or were dropped, only 1 actually had an issue with it. He was removed because he was a bit much and he was grating on folk's nerves. Which segues into another thing. Try not to burn folks out. Constantly beating your head against a wall is not healthy. Take breaks. Kill easier things. It helps. Also talking to members openly helps. If someone feels something isn't right hash it out. See who can do what to help.
Also, be lucky. The static I'm in has had it's ups and downs. We've had bad eggs and have been half annihilated at one point. Luckily we gathered up, pulled through and chugged along.