Why are Statics so difficult sometimes?

[Alaray]

Savage isn't fun for most people, and rather than tell you straight out it isn't fun and leave, they make excuses until it blows up.

I mena, ffs look at these answers. What kind of videogame or endgame is it where the best advice is NOT to do it with friends or guildmates?

Consequently, I do the content with close friends and fc members.

The only revolving door issue and clashes have come from recruited people who didn't mesh with us, or expected one of us to quit so they could fill that role instead of the role they signed up to be.

It's a more casual environment, the vast majority of us were brand new to raiding/raiding in FFXIV (this was my first tier, just in general, never raided before and never tanked before but I took the chance when it came up from a friend). Going into it, I did highlight to them that if I underperformed or didn't fit well, that they should feel free to remove me/ask me to leave the group. That never occurred, luckily, and we all ended up meshing quite well together with our goal more surrounding improvement and becoming better players than extremely fast progression.

(Granted, a lot of people miss days/can't make it and it's been a struggle to get the entire group into God Kefka, but it's a hectic time for a lot of schedules and we're pretty much of the mind "Life > Video Game" provided there's some heads up if it'll be a conflict so we can contact reps and so on).


Have we progressed slower than most? Yes.
Have we missed raid nights/had to call many early? Yes.
Did we start a bit later into the tier than most? Yes.
Are we having fun and still working towards our goal? Yes. And this is the important point.

[Lambdafish]

I mena, ffs look at these answers. What kind of videogame or endgame is it where the best advice is NOT to do it with friends or guildmates?

What kind of videogame? Team based videogames. Period. If you are serious in any kind of esports or PVP game, it is exactly the same. I disagree about not raiding with friends, but the idea of managing a static is the same as managing a group of people anywhere, and that comes with consequence sometimes.

Ultimately we aren't talking about the game, so get the idea that this is fault of savage out of your head, because many people (clearly not you) find savage very fun. This is about people management, plain and simple.

[RiyahArp]

What kind of videogame? Team based videogames. Period. If you are serious in any kind of esports or PVP game, it is exactly the same.

The game is what causes it. If they liked Savage, why would they make excuses to skip it? You can't manage people into doing something they dislike. The way these team-based, high skill games are wind up being very unlikable for a lot of people. I saw it on overwatch...people try and do it, find they are miserable, and ditch competitive or the game entirely. I think it's fair to be annoyed at the games some, and I'd kind of point out battle royale has become popular as a counterreaction to them.

If that's how you took all the previous posts, then I'm not sure if you've read them at all.

They're saying that it's dependent on the player's goals. Is a player's goal is to clear savage content quickly as possible, and their friends have those same goals? Great! Do their friends have a more casual look on the game? Probably not wise to raid savage with them, unless they're okay with reaching their goal at a slower pace or not at all.

You know, if a game kind of forces that kind of separation, i don't think it's good. The fact that you have to weigh your friends compared to getting completion of four fights that have a shelf life of one year tops i don't think is good design. I think this is why old-school raid design was pretty low on the skill component and higher on the time one, so you weren't forced to weigh your goals as much.

It’s not so much people saying “Don’t raid with FC mates/friends/significant others”, as it’s people saying “In the event that you do, make sure that you are able to have a stern hand with them”, I think—so as that, if they start causing drama, you have the guts to put a stop to it rather than “let it go because they’re your FC mate/friend/significant other”. Many a times static leaders let their FC mate/friend/SO stomp all over them and dictate the static, and it causes friction in the static because of that.

I prefer to raid with friends myself as opposed to strangers. It makes the content more fun. But there have to be checks and balances in place so that friendships do not negatively impact the way the static runs.


As for the “Savage isn’t fun for most people”, we have already agreed to disagree on this, because I think what is fun is subjective. If we’re speaking with regards to the amount of the playerbase that does Savage, then yes, you could probably infer that Savage isn’t fun for most people. But I think for the majority of people that do run Savage enjoy the content. Otherwise, why would they do it?

Because the static is so important that you need to take a stern hand with your friend, possibly to the point of kicking them, otherwise clearing this fight will be impossible. The whole skill threshold for this and organizational threshhold is so high, comparable to certain types of raiding, that you have to manage your friends as if they are working with you. In other mmos, it exists, but it seems to be much harsher here, comparable to the aforementioned pvp games.

I think this kind of game transforms the relationship badly, and players for some reason kind of default to "it's the players fault" in the sense that the static is more important or the goal is. The op is surprised that people are the way they are, but I always wonder why no one ever looks at the game itself.

Oh as for fun, eh.I meant it in the population sense, which affects the OP who recruited from his FC. If someone gives an excuse not to do something, there really are just two options if it isnt legit. They don't like it, or they don't like you. My bet is on the former, because usually, people who organize are pretty nice.

[TyrTry]

You know, if a game kind of forces that kind of separation, i don't think it's good. The fact that you have to weigh your friends compared to getting completion of four fights that have a shelf life of one year tops i don't think is good design. I think this is why old-school raid design was pretty low on the skill component and higher on the time one, so you weren't forced to weigh your goals as much.

No. A game should never separate a good friendship (look at Mario Party), that is why I would ask each member if they truly desired to do this. When they all agreed "yes," I took them at the word (this processed happened more than once mind you). I do believe that if you say you are committed to something, then you should be committed, or at least speak your mind and say "I can't do this." Don't be afraid to walk away, it's better than constant silence.

[RiyahArp]

When they all agreed "yes," I took them at the word (this processed happened more than once mind you).

Yeah, people try to spare people's feelings, but it ends up bad. And they can be committed to trying, and then start to resent it. But..well you know, if you see them start skipping, they are saying something with their actions. Not many people say "I hate my job!" to their boss, but you can tell from what they do at least something is up.

but then that means you kind of have to force the issue, and ehh. idk why we need to make games into work so much.

[Alaray]

Because the static is so important that you need to take a stern hand with your friend, possibly to the point of kicking them, otherwise clearing this fight will be impossible. The whole skill threshold for this and organizational threshhold is so high, comparable to certain types of raiding, that you have to manage your friends as if they are working with you. In other mmos, it exists, but it seems to be much harsher here, comparable to the aforementioned pvp games.

I feel like in the event this causes a break of friendship, unless one party was particularly rude to the other, then it was a weak friendship to begin with.

Had I not been able to perform well on these fights, or learn them, or understand them, or execute them, I wouldn't want to stay in a static even if it's full of my friends. I'd rather excuse myself, understand I wasn't in line with the goal of the group, or the challenge of the content they wanted to do, and proceeded to follow their progress while remaining friends with them. I accepted the possibility the moment I signed up, and I was absolutely ready to own that possibility if it was the way things ultimately went. It'd suck, it'd probably be a confidence hit, but at the end of the day I'd be able to see from their perspective and understand the necessity. I'm very grateful it didn't play out that way and we've all been able to stick together and down things, but again, I was prepared to own it if I was holding the group back and leave the group from day 1.

I've known others who were asked to leave, or left a static, of their own accord because they felt/or knew that their performance was hindering the group as a whole. Yet, they remain friends.

You can remain friends. All it takes is a few ounces of maturity from your friends to understand the situation and respectfully speak to you through things. If they are unwilling to respect you, or the rest of the party, then I don't think they were valuable friends in the first place.

[HyoMinPark]

Because the static is so important that you need to take a stern hand with your friend, possibly to the point of kicking them, otherwise clearing this fight will be impossible. The whole skill threshold for this and organizational threshhold is so high, comparable to certain types of raiding, that you have to manage your friends as if they are working with you. In other mmos, it exists, but it seems to be much harsher here, comparable to the aforementioned pvp games.

I think this kind of game transforms the relationship badly, and players for some reason kind of default to "it's the players fault" in the sense that the static is more important or the goal is. The op is surprised that people are the way they are, but I always wonder why no one ever looks at the game itself.

Oh as for fun, eh.I meant it in the population sense, which affects the OP who recruited from his FC. If someone gives an excuse not to do something, there really are just two options if it isnt legit. They don't like it, or they don't like you. My bet is on the former, because usually, people who organize are pretty nice.

If you and your FC mate/friend/significant other are wanting to commit to a static with you, you have to learn to separate the personal relationship enough that it doesn’t negatively impact the relationship between the static members. I think of it similar to working with your spouse/running a business together with them: you have to make sure that your relationship doesn’t negatively impact the way the business functions. I have known a few statics that have been led by a person who let in their significant other, and the significant other caused a lot of drama in the static as well as not being on the same page as the other members, and the leader did nothing about it. Eventually, the static exploded because the other members got tired of it, and they left.

This is not to say I expect Savage to be the equivalent of a job—just that progging and clearing content like Savage (and Ultimate) takes a bit more work than the other content in the game. And if there’s trouble brewing within the group, it’s going to make prog (and even weeklies) feel more and more like a chore...which isn’t the purpose of a game. I have been in groups where there is drama and the like, where the leader didn’t want to do anything about it, and where members have not been on the same page, and it made me dislike running the content for a time until I found a more positive environment. You spend so much time with the people in a static, you kind of need the environment to be positive and healthy as opposed to negative and drama-ridden.

With regards to the OP, his problems seemed to stem from being afraid to have this stern hand as a static leader out of a desire to make sure he doesn’t hurt his friends. And while I understand that completely, you also have to think about what the “drama” is doing to the rest of the group. And the decision to kick/replace/have a stern talking to with the offender is never easy, and less so if they’re your friend. Which is why people are saying that being a static leader is hard to do, but maybe it’s easier to do if you’re doing it with strangers as opposed to friends. It’s a bit easier to be sterner with strangers than it is with your friends or your FC mates or your significant other.

I personally think it is more fun to raid with friends. But when you’re doing that, you have to make sure that everyone is on the same page, and that any budding drama is nipped in the bud very quickly. You also have to have a strong enough relationship that mild bickerments do not impact the static or the friendship, and the leader has to let themselves be a leader as opposed to always trying to be a friend to everyone. I have also known static leaders like that, and it never spells anything good for the group trying to be everyone’s buddy as opposed to making the tough decisions one has to make when they are in a leadership position (e.g., someone no-shows to raid for two months straight, and the leader refuses to kick them because they’re friends, and instead forces the group to PUG a member each week...which may or may not go smoothly; this is a true story). And it is also the reason why I do not want to be a static leader, because I would function very much the same, and I don’t think that would be healthy for the life of the group.

[Paladinleeds]

the leader has to let themselves be a leader as opposed to always trying to be a friend to everyone. I have also known static leaders like that, and it never spells anything good for the group trying to be everyone’s buddy as opposed to making the tough decisions one has to make when they are in a leadership position (e.g., someone no-shows to raid for two months straight, and the leader refuses to kick them because they’re friends, and instead forces the group to PUG a member each week...which may or may not go smoothly; this is a true story). And it is also the reason why I do not want to be a static leader, because I would function very much the same, and I don’t think that would be healthy for the life of the group.

This is why when I go to make a new static, I am employing a strict and equal 3 strike rule. If you hit 3 strikes I will say "Right, you're at 3 strikes now, GL in the future, I am kicking you." - I don't care if this makes me a lot of enemies (I have them in abundance in this game already, what's a few more gonna do? The stresses of the last static I lead which had friends in has resulted in problems showing elsewhere, and I have lost several friends over it (and am having to move realms once my house demolishes so I can get a clean break). This new static, I am not sure if I should try to remain friends with people who leave/are removed from the static, since I am scared of a repeat of what happened last time. Static members are simply colleagues. I am the manager, which means I have to take a zero tolerance approach.

[Raven2014]

Savage isn't fun for most people, and rather than tell you straight out it isn't fun and leave, they make excuses until it blows up.
I mena, ffs look at these answers. What kind of videogame or endgame is it where the best advice is NOT to do it with friends or guildmates?

Because the static is so important that you need to take a stern hand with your friend, possibly to the point of kicking them, otherwise clearing this fight will be impossible. The whole skill threshold for this and organizational threshhold is so high, comparable to certain types of raiding, that you have to manage your friends as if they are working with you. In other mmos, it exists, but it seems to be much harsher here, comparable to the aforementioned pvp games.

Base on these 2 comments I can say two things, you are either:

- Don't really play other MMO beside this game.
- You never really participate in the end game scene, and just commenting on it from the side.

This situation exists in every MMO. I had played WoW during the period of its first 4 expacks, I had played Everquests, I had played GuildWarII, I've been playing this game since 2.0, and if my experience to go by, this game actually have one of the most casual end game raiding scenes comparing to most of the other Western MMO. You seem to be making the assumption about playing with friends, or significant others is that you have to do everything together, it's not.

I remember back in WoW, I was part of a HC raiding guild. The thing is, most of us have some casual friends playing the game as well. So outside of raid nights, we hang out and chill with them. It worked well, for a HC guild, I remembered we rarely remove anyone from our raid group unless they left willingly due to real life situation, and my casual friends played with me all those years as well. Samething when I moved to GW2. And samething happening now in this game. The idea is you realize to maintain sustainable and healthy long term relationships, you have to at least have a few of these aspects:

- Having aligned interest.
- Mutual respect of each other times.
- Give each other their own space to maneuver around.

In fact, that kind of attitude of "being around each other 24/7 and do everything together" is not a healthy one, especially when the interest is not align. Ask yourself this:

-why hardcore group tend to be the most resilience groups? Most of these people have been playing together for years, and from the outside most of them also look like arrogant a-double-s elitist jerks? So how these jerks actually can stick with each others in an environment that assumed to be more hostile than most?
- On the other spectrum, you can also find groups that are so casual that never really able to accomplish anything, but still play with each others for years?

It's not your place to decide out of those two, one is having fun and the other isn't. I'm pretty sure they both have fun in their own way. The issue usually come from the groups that trying to mix-match those two types. It doesn't matter if you're talking about a gaming group, a circle of friends, or even members of a family. People naturally gravitate toward those with similar interest and goal, if you try to force the issue otherwise then you're just looking at a fallout in the making.


And btw, if you think managing a group in this game is hard when it has:

- Linkshell
- PF.
- 8men raid.

Not to mention modern ultility like Discord ...etc...
Try to imagine the situations in games like WoW back when the best VO were Teamspeak/Ventrilo, and the raid consist of 10-24-40 people with no PF or communication methods outside of guild chat. This game, like I said, is lot more casual friendly then most MMO out there.

[RiyahArp]

Base on these 2 comments I can say two things,

ive played other mmos, and have done raiding in ffxi. And the older games there never really was a need to tell your friend not to play ,because old school raids were more a function of time than skill. You just showed up in a group and worked out your role. There really wasn't the whole professionalization of the metagame in many earlier mmos.

And I've also seen what happens when one person chooses the raid over their friend.

The person who chooses the raid stops doing things with their friend. The raid takes up so much time and energy, that they don't really want to grind older stuff. The friend becomes more of a hanger on; they always compete with the raid even if they choose to not do it. Because raids really do take a lot of time.

Discord? lol. You end up on the raid discord, because you spend more time with the static and do things that are important to them.

I think a lot of people don't realize this happens until its too late.