Make FFXIV a 'Sandbox' game. No way it can compete against upcoming 'Themeparks'.

[gifthorse]

XI was based around FFIII, which means the idea for a FF MMO is taking aspects of Final Fantasy games -- So it's not my idea of what a FF MMO, it's literally Square's idea and if they didn't want to make XIV so different from XI you can guarantee it would have been exactly like XI only with more freedom to do better graphics, systems and content type because the PS2 held XI back and it has taken almost 10 years for it to feel the effects of being a PS2 title, so with XIV they could have done everything they couldn't do with XI, but chose to go a new direction that realistically didn't work out too well barring the rushed release.

For reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_F...XI#Development



So realistically, a FF MMO is and should be based around the series it's actually a part of, just like World of Warcraft was based around the Warcraft lore. You said it yourself, there's only 1 FF MMO, which means there's no reason to "change" now, when it already doesn't feel like a FF game to begin with -- While true it somewhat resembles Final Fantasy II, it still doesn't have that "feel" to it that XI does which is why polls have shown people really do want it to live up to it's Final Fantasy name -- Best bet is if you expect it to "change" they have to drop the name and rename it back to Project Rapture, it's why they're now pretty much trying to transform it into a FF game because it's what a lot of people want.

Thanks for the history lesson, Jennestia. Relevant as always... (/sarcasm).

While I completely understand that FFXI was modelled in FFIII's image, the argument in this thread isn't about destroying the features which make this a Final Fantasy game. In other words, it's not about changing the aesthetics and the FF "feel", it's about transforming basic and fundamental game-design concepts.

Obviously you can't change something so fundamental without effecting certain gameplay elements, but a FF game can still exist within the scope of the changes, especially considering what makes an FF game is such an intangible definition.

Anyway, FFXI might have been modelled after FFIII but in point of fact it actually drew more from Everquest than it ever did from FFIII. After all, It had to make some accommodations for MMO design. For instance, you can't have random encounters, and you can't have the same progression style of a single player RPG in an MMO. So some changes had to be made to the typical FF concepts when designing FFXI, simply in order to foster an MMO community.

Now, the point of this thread is that there are two ways of fostering an MMO community. One of those ways is to create countless reams of content( one instanced boss fight after the other) with the primary goal of such a system being to digest all of the content and have all the best gear.

The other route is to implement just as much content, but also to give players the ability to shape their own content too. If you look up the Themepark vs. Sandbox dichotomy, you'll see what I mean. On one hand there is the static world where players are along for the ride (Themeparks), and on the other hand is a game world more focussed on player-interactions and how players help shape and change the world (Sandboxes).

Just because FFXI was a themepark doesn't mean FFXIV can't be an amazing sandbox. Having the latter doesn't preclude FFXIV from maintaining FF-esque features.

[Phrozen]

gifthorse is an expert at marketing games

[Shikyo]

I think Game Designers need to stop trying to follow fads. The internet is one big fat stinky troll that is sitting on the dining room table.

FF has a set, dedicated fanbase, who like their games a particular way.

Don't mess with Granny's recipe when you don't even know it.

Yes sir you are right when talking online ff we only have 1 game that we ff fans compare it to and thats XI no other game was like that one, it was a beloved exp that i wont forget and i hope to make the same statement about XIV get mad if you want

[gifthorse]

gifthorse is an expert at marketing games

I'm just saying, I doubt anyone will be coming back when faced with the myriad of other titles being released soon, all of which are competing for the same customers. So FFXIV has to differentiate itself more (even more than FFXI was differentiated) as opposed to trying to compete when in reality it probably won't be able to.

[Abriael]

Yes because all of the beta footage of those games are just scams.

Aside from the fact that quite a few of the games you named aren't even in beta. PR videos aren't exactly the best way to judge a game's quality (they are PR, they are made purposedly to make you think that the game is great).
People were shedding tears of joy even while seeing the early videos of FFXIV, and of the many other games in the past that hit a wall at launch.

Presumptuous much? At what point, just tell me this, did I ask for the removal of the armory system or any of FFXIV's unique features? A sandbox game wouldn't discourage group play, the armory system, or any of the good things about FFXIV, but it would however give FFXIV more of a chance in the industry to capture a bigger player base. Possibly, anyway.

Actually the userbase for sandbox game has been demonstrated to be quite small by previous experience. Darkfall was to be the king of sandbox games. The wet dream of sandbox games lovers. And it's most definitely the most "sanboxy" mmorpg out there. Guess what? It failed so hard that it makes FFXIV looks like a critical success.
So no, it wouldn't give the game a chance to capture a bigger userbase. It would put the game in a niche with a smaller usebarse. Much smaller.

What's quite telling is your inability to express any hesitation about how right you always are. But really, you don't know that the addition of more content - at a very slow pace might I add - will be enough to ensure this game's success. You're just stating that because you feel like it or something.

And you're not stating things because you feel like it? Like everyone else out here?
When most of the games you mentioned will be launched, FFXIV will have had plenty time to be filled up with content. The pace is nowhere slow. It's actually one of the fastest, if not the fastest, rate of evolution in the market's past and present.

The notion that in order to compete with other games, FFXIV should NOT compete with them is rather funny. It's a game with a lot of strong points, that need to be exploited, expanded and built upon. SE has the resources to do that, and doesn't need to run away into a small niche to be able to compete with other developers.

I'm just saying, I doubt anyone will be coming back when faced with the myriad of other titles being released soon, all of which are competing for the same customers. So FFXIV has to differentiate itself more (even more than FFXI was differentiated) as opposed to trying to compete when in reality it probably won't be able to.

Aside from the fact that "soon" is a serious overstatement, FFXIV has something over most of those titles. It's *already* unique in many ways. Besides Blade and Soul and TERA everything else is a wow clone. Blade and Soul and Tera don't even have a set release date yet, and they're both action based MMOs, attracting a quite different demographic of twitch-lovers.

A theme park can easily compete with other theme parks as long as it has rides and a better theme. FFXIV has a better theme, and can easily get more and better rides before those games even see the light.
If the developers were to pull out a silly defeatist attitude and run away from the challenge, that'd be just the perfect indication that it's not worth it.

[Phrozen]

I'm just saying, I doubt anyone will be coming back when faced with the myriad of other titles being released soon, all of which are competing for the same customers. So FFXIV has to differentiate itself more (even more than FFXI was differentiated) as opposed to trying to compete when in reality it probably won't be able to.

they may not immediately but when they discover that those games have no long term effect they'll come back if that's what they're looking for. XIV has more room to grow and a better team than the other downy games

[gifthorse]

Aside from the fact that quite a few of the games you named aren't even in beta. PR videos aren't exactly the best way to judge a game's quality (they are PR, they are made purposedly to make you think that the game is great).
People were shedding tears of joy even while seeing the early videos of FFXIV, and of the many other games in the past that hit a wall at launch.

Well I do see Guild Wars 2 and TERA being the main contenders, and those are very well along in development terms and have had, at the very least, Beta tests. And many people I know from FFXIV (R50s btw) left for korean TERA saying it is the most amazing game even though they can't even properly understand the quest dialogue. I feel like that's saying something for the state of that game.

Actually the userbase for sandbox game has been demonstrated to be quite small by previous experience. Darkfall was to be the king of sandbox games. The wet dream of sandbox games lovers. And it's most definitely the most "sanboxy" mmorpg out there. Guess what? It failed so hard that it makes FFXIV looks like a critical success.
So no, it wouldn't give the game a chance to capture a bigger userbase. It would put the game in a niche with a smaller usebarse. Much smaller.

Darkfall, as an example, had a million flaws. Being a sandbox wasn't a fault it had. Was it not so unbelievably broken, it might have met with very much success.

Anyway, including sandbox elements isn't mutually exlusive to what FFXIV is currently doing. You can have developer-oriented content like questing, instances, party-play systems all in place and coexisting alongside more player-oriented content. So it's not like attracting one demographic will discourage the other from staying.

And you're not stating things because you feel like it? Like everyone else out here?
When most of the games you mentioned will be launched, FFXIV will have had plenty time to be filled up with content. The pace is nowhere slow. It's actually one of the fastest, if not the fastest, rate of evolution in the market's past and present.

But at least my statements are within reason.

The notion that in order to compete with other games, FFXIV should NOT compete with them is rather funny. It's a game with a lot of strong points, that need to be exploited, expanded and built upon. SE has the resources to do that, and doesn't need to run away into a small niche to be able to compete with other developers.

An old, broken, game targeting the same audience with the same types of content as newer games but with a crappier UI and repetitive guildleve system, which game do you think potential customers will gravitate toward? The only funny thing around here is your optimism.

[Anty]

since im playing rift a bit i must say, i wouldnt worry too much about upcoming great mmos, since only time will tell if they really are. So far rift has not that much to offer, the playerbase is big, ppl are ok but even in a guild with 100 ppl online you barely see someone say hello or goodbye. I talk more in ffxi/ffxiv with 3 ppl online in the LS....
You have i dunno like 1000 or 2000 quests who are all the same more or less. Dungeon and world design is great but even though there are a shit load of ppl everyone acts on his own. I get bored fast.

My point is: All of those mmos are not much more then flat rpgs wtih some group content, you are playing solo most of the time and do some raids or instances every once in a while but thats it. The dynamic events dont feel dynamic after you seen them 100 times and there are no surprises at all. Party play, party lvling is what makes an mmo "mulitplayer" imo.
without ppl to talk to or meeting new ppl its pointless. And even an rpg with a bad story usually has more to offer then.

I think Tera wont be much different from aion or rift. Ok the fight system might be different but i doubt anything else will be special. So after you know the system ... well not sure but i think there will be the same quests like you already know from 1000 other games.

Guild wars 2 i think might do well but its no competition, since its no mmo. Its much more of a solo game wtih mulitplayer options and pvp then an mmo.

The focus on party play is the strength of ffxi and ffxiv. We have more then enough "solo" mmos. So i have high hopes in FFXIV. Both solo and especially party content can be improved by a lot still and i bet it will. And i really rather wait then having it tranformed to all these boring clones.

No matter what mmos i play who are pve oriented ppl get so bored after a short time since they dont meet people solong from 1-80, since theres no point in doin so. and at lvl 80 they are used not to talk at all and leave the game after a while.
They give up saying hello in guildchat since nobody replies anyways. I think thats the main reason for mmos to fail, even the mmos having a good start.

Another nice example for such a fail is Age of Conan (which design and jobsystem and such i really like a lot, also the fightsystem) but you are alone from 1-80 then at lvl 80 all the "highlvl" spam the raids (which have 1 week cooldown timer) on tuesday. Then the game is basicly dead from wednesday to the upcoming tuesday lol. There even are other things to do, but nobody does them since ppl dont know how to "play" they get gear and log off. And that is what happens to all mmos who dont set more focus on party play.

[sharky]

Is this really worth complaining about? OK, they could have used a book to show the npc that will give you a quest. This wasn't your original complaint but if your goal is to find something to complain about, I obviously can't stop you. Let's see what you want to say next, since here you imply your main beef is the symbol that they use, not that they have a symbol at



OK, I thought I clarified already that these symbols show the starting npc for a quest, yet the game doesn't show new ! for any other npc in a quest or show. But you are once again painting this in a false light. I'm wondering if you neither actually played the game with these quests or read a reputable source at the minimum about what the quests were like. You are operating on so many false assumptions it isn't even funny. You say people will solo level with these quests for 40+ levels. First of all, if there was a way for those who choose to level solo, why should it bother you? However, in this case that point doesn't make the slightest sense, for 2 basic reasons. First, the quests don't give exp, at all. In fact, if the quest tells you to kill mobs for part of it, those mobs don't give normal mob exp. I would like to see someone use these sidequests to level. Additionally, you imply that all quests ever offered would be soloable, and that they can't add challenging quests that will require putting together a group. You say developers should be focused on forcing people to party, in other words, the goal of developers should be to focus on the gameplay you want solely. This is incredibly selfish. Bringing up guildleves at all in this discussion and comparing them to these sidequests also shows you are unaware of the popular opinion verified by player polls that guildleves are boring and grindy excuses for a normal quest. Ultimately there are many issues with this game, and I think asking for changes to a part that is new and are NOT hurting anything is incredibly silly. Especially when you are unsure whether you just hate the symbol they use, which is an aesthetic argument, or whether you hate the fact it is in even in the game, which is a wholly different complaint.




First of all, whether your whining is whining or not is moot. That is a completely objective idea, based on your outlook and opinions and mine being different. There is no doubt what you are doing here sounds like whining to me. If it makes you feel better I won't use the word anymore, especially since it is beside the point. You make another assumption here, that is someone pays for an MMO, they only want to do a specific activity always. Once again, this is incredibly selfish for you to assume you speak for all players of this game, and all potential future players of this game. The rest of this paragraph is a train wreck, get a bit more mastery of the english language. I can kind of guess a meaning to that last section but it is no help from you writing it. Only using the context of the rest of the post, and ignoring the third line mostly because it is a broken sentence with no meaning. Let's pretend that sentence makes sense though! If the developers are trying to keep single players happy as a priority, ... they shouldn't encourage single player game play in an mmo? Hmm, ok I can't even pretend that makes sense, but I can examine another assumption in it. The idea they are focusing on solo content is first off your opinion, but I can understand why you would look at it that way considering there is barely any content in the game. Guildleves are a implementation failure as usual of what was initially a great idea on SE part. As it is, they are soloable and easy, and the only carrot for linking up with others is xp bonus. The difficulty stars do not work well. A better way would have been to make the stars increase actual difficulty to the point larger partys were needed, and instead of small xp bonus, make it so that the rewards, from xp, to item, were better or higher quality. I would have loved to spam party guildleves to get the FF14 equivalent to some leaping boots, or similar items for other classes.

There are tons of ways to encourage party play other than forcing it. Grow up, SE is making this game for a majority, not you and the other few niche gamers.

The problem that I have with the exclamation mark symbols is that they were requested to be put in there by people who saw them in other MMOs and felt that they were needed, not by developers. Why stop there? Lets keep adding stuff from other MMOs into this game until we end up turning FF14 into the other MMOs we already played.

There are a lot of players in the game currently that are just not partying. There are a lot of players soloing. A lot. Many of the suggested changes seem to be benefiting solo gaming. It's an MMO. Multi-player should be a priority.

I see the '!' mark symbols as a representation of taking a big step backwards.

[OmegaNovaios]

This allows FFXIV to be a sandbox while fixing the uniqueness issue that FFXIV has please read it and support if you agree.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations