Mechanisms of a playable Lupin race

[KisaiTenshi]

Plot: The Lupin have reasons to hate Garlmald. Lupin families were killed, separated, forced into labor, and used as conscripts over seas.

They have all the makings to be a central part in the story. They also seem to not resort to summoning primals, and to want peace for the realm. There’s also enemy Lupin that resorted to looting, and banditing In a similar matter to the poachers in Gridania.

Did we need another Lupin thread though? The last thread was started almost exactly a year ago: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ayable-race%21



I'm not against the idea of having more races. What I find is that players often make suggestions about another race without taking into either the lore or the technical requirements to do so. Lore-wise, yes the Lupin exist, but they physically exist in the same way the Ixal, Amalj'aa and Sahagin exist. They use the exact same Hyur animation rigs the players use. The Sylph and Moogles use the same "floating rig" and thus their attack animations aren't that different. The Tonberries and Namazu, aren't that far off the Lalafell's. So when people suggest a race that doesn't fit something that is already in the game, it requires a lot more animation effort than reusing an existing rig. A proper playable Lupin would have the same requirements as making any of the beast tribes that don't wear shoes playable. Mainly the animation cycle and the existing gear would not work.

The devs put a lot of effort into the individual animations for each race, so any additional race that can't reuse 90% of an existing race's animation is going to be very expensive. That's essentially why we only got two added for ARR (male Miqo'te and Female Roe) and the two for the Au Ra with HW. With that, those race/genders re-use most of the animation sets. Hence if the Lupin were to become a playable race, Just like the Viera, or some other humanoid, they would likely end up being variations on the Hyur or Elezen, and because the Lupin trend more "furry", the animation for the head would be harder to pull off than the Viera. However if they put effort into the feet/legs animations for one, they could reuse it for the other. Otherwise the largest way to cheese this requirement is to make the all foot gear for Lupin/Viera permanently attached like the heels on the female gender races. Hence they would end up walking like them, and while being less interesting, it saves animation budget.

From a lore point of view, the Lupin do not (yet) have a primal. However based on everything we know about the lore for the Doma area thus far, is based on the three relics of Japan, the Sword, Mirror and Jewel. Susanoo is the god of summer storms, which we wound up summoning at the Red Kojin's treasure room. Tsukuyomi is the god of the moon (summoned with a mirror), thus leaving an empty slot for Amaterasu being summoned.

Take a note of what Amaterasu looks like in Final Fantasy Dimensions II:


Like we likely haven't seen a beatman primal for the Lupin because they're saving her for later. But the devs could also mess with us.

[Rongway]

Take a note of what Amaterasu looks like in Final Fantasy Dimensions II:

Not arguing for or against any part of your post but this last part.
FFD2 had lots of eidolons, and some of them were way out there. It's not something we should seriously base anything XIV related on.

[Nestama]

A proper playable Lupin would have the same requirements as making any of the beast tribes that don't wear shoes playable. Mainly the animation cycle and the existing gear would not work.

I don't think feet will be an issue for Lupin. Just the hands and head... hell, maybe it is just the head that will require work. Those gloves he's wearing pretty much disregard his claws. SE is already giving them the 'Au Ra hat horn' treatment.

Oh hey, this is your screenshot.

Also the whole Primal thing is a non-issue considering the playable races have summoned a total of six currently (Phoenix, Shiva, Thordan, Sophia, Shinryu and you-know-who).

[KisaiTenshi]

I don't think feet will be an issue for Lupin. Just the hands and head... hell, maybe it is just the head that will require work. Those gloves he's wearing pretty much disregard his claws. SE is already giving them the 'Au Ra hat horn' treatment.

Oh hey, this is your screenshot.

Also the whole Primal thing is a non-issue considering the playable races have summoned a total of six currently (Phoenix, Shiva, Thordan, Sophia, Shinryu and you-know-who).

Yeah, but the thing I was highlighting was that the actual lore points to there being at least one more primal for the Doma area, and that is the only one that makes sense in the context given. The Namazu or Qiqirn have not summoned a primal, but they do have areas in the game where they're just field monsters, just like the Lupin. Namazu deviate from their own source lore not that much.

https://www.ancient.eu/Namazu/

Namazu’s efforts might bring destruction and despair but he does have a positive side. The catfish represented the regular renewal of the world known as yo-naoshi which was welcomed by the poor as an opportunity to shake up the wealthy classes, redistribute their accumulated riches, and make a new start.

Now doesn't that sound like their current plot for the beast tribe?

So with the Lupin, it seems almost a given for Amaterasu to be their Primal, but she could also be the final boss of Heaven-on-High in context, but that kind deflates her importance to the three treasures.

https://www.ancient.eu/Amaterasu/


But as I also mentioned, the devs don't necessarily have to adhere to the real-world lore they're deriving things from. But they're pretty much doing so even with the 4 lords storyline.

As for a playable Lupin race. As others have mentioned, even if the gear is cheesed (the screenshot I took is from late in the SB MSQ) the facial animation on the existing Lupin is basically "wolf mask on a Hyur" as they're not very animated. So that would not make for an interesting race to play if they're just a mask.

[Rongway]

So with the Lupin, it seems almost a given for Amaterasu to be their Primal, but she could also be the final boss of Heaven-on-High in context, but that kind deflates her importance to the three treasures.

Amaterasu should be summoned through another Kojin relic, though.

Declaring her intent to rule over Doma once more, she holds aloft a Kojin relic, and begins to draw upon crystals hidden within the surrounding supply crates, transforming at last into the primal Tsukuyomi.

If Susano and Tsukuyomi are both summoned through Kojin relics, surely Amaterasu will be as well. The three are a set.

(PS: They already used all three pieces of the Japanese Imperial Regalia on Susano. Watch his summoning cutscene again.)

[KisaiTenshi]

Amaterasu should be summoned through another Kojin relic, though.

If Susano and Tsukuyomi are both summoned through Kojin relics, surely Amaterasu will be as well. The three are a set.

(PS: They already used all three pieces of the Japanese Imperial Regalia on Susano. Watch his summoning cutscene again.)

Aware of that, but you're conflating two separate lore things as being the same.

https://www.ancient.eu/Amaterasu/

Japanese nobility also claimed descent from the goddess when prior to the cave episode she took Susanoo’s sword, broke it into three pieces, ate them and then spat them out as three female deities. Likewise, Susanoo took from his sister her necklace of 500 jewels, ate them and spat them out as a mist from which formed five male deities. Collectively, these eight deities were believed to be the ancestors of the Japanese nobles.

Wouldn't be a stretch of that's the plot to Heaven-on-high instead.

At any rate my point, again, is that there can be no less than three kami's in play because of the Japanese relics for the Doma area are key to that. Amaterasu also involves a mirror.

https://www.ancient.eu/Amaterasu/

The Ise Grand Shrine or Jingu, the most important Shinto shrine in Japan, is dedicated to Amaterasu and the goddess is represented there by one of her other symbols - an octagonal mirror (yata kayami).

Back on topic though. There is another thread entirely for discussing about wanting to add the Lupin's, let's just leave this thread to discussing how they fit into the game already, technical reasons being one of them.

My view is that the Lupin and Viera (name dropped in 4.3) could both be added to the game, as playable races, but we're probably asking for too much of a retcon without first establishing that yes, they are an actual civilized population, not merely a subjugated beast tribe as we've been hinted to. The term "Lupin" itself is not even of eastern origin, it's latin "Lupine" for "of the wolf". They would have been "okami" which is literately "(Japanese) Wolf" had they been originally native to the area. So maybe the Lupin we see in Doma aren't even from "Doma region" but maybe they were refugees from some place in Garlemald originally. Remember that the Garleans consider Eorezeans as savages, so they would likely have the view point that the Lupin, Viera, Au Ra and Miqo'te are talking animals taken humanoid form. Or maybe the developers just picked Lupin because it would cause less confusion since the Kojin refer to "kami"'s. Or maybe to avoid confusing it with the "okami" game.

Aside from my screenshot during 4.0 , I've not seen the large Lupin anywhere else.

There are four F.A.T.E's that involve Lupin that I'm aware of:

Crying Wolves

Lupin who have, for one reason or another, been driven from their packs will oft end up members of small independent parties which seek revenge on those they believe wrong them─which, in their mind, ends up being everyone but themselves.

1/3 Scared Straightheart

While indeed many of the Lupin can prove difficult or even deadly, Gaei Straightheart is an honorable youth with a passion to right wrongs and defend those unable to defend themselves. That said, his passion for do-goodery oft runs him afoul with less-than-savory characters─characters not unlike those surrounding him now...

2/3 Wolves of a Feather

Alerted to their brother's plight, several of Gaei's pack have hurried to his side to assist in driving back those who would do him harm. Join the Lupin in their fight to defend Gaei.

3/3 Goodwill Hunterling

Seeing their fortunes falter with the arrival of Gaei's pack, Straightheart's assailants summon forth their final weapon─an ill-reputed Kojin mercenary known as Wakizashi the Hunterling. Put him down, and the rest may finally admit defeat.

That chain of 3 F.A.T.E's is not all that different from the Qiqirn chain in Eastern Thanalan. The nameless beasties summon a named beastman.

It's my opinion that for all intents, at present, SE's current incarnation of the Lupin are designed to be the same as the Namazu and and Qiqirn (basically they're a race that is on normally good terms with the other "player" races.) There are hostile versions on the field, but they're otherwise not arranged like the other beast tribes where there is an entire territory under the protection of a primal/kami/god/etc. The Ananta however are a beast tribe, and have summoned a primal, despite also having the same hostile variation on the field and a friendly version that acts as allies (like the Sylph.) The Sylph are the only beast tribe that we can actually see who's been enthralled since the touched ones are purple. All other beast races look nearly identical to their enthralled version except for a color change on what passes for clothing. The goblins are also something of a unique situation, because the "friendly" goblins look the same as the enemy goblins in the ARR region, but the Idyllshire goblins look different from the Illuminati goblins in the ruins and in Alexander. So the goblins have, their own city (Idyllshire) that they basically took over from the Sharlayans, they have a their own shop npc's, they have their own primal, and the goblins are not enthralled to their primal, and unlike the other beastmen tribes, they do NOT have their own currency or beast tribe quests.

That's at least how I see the direction for the existing Lupin going. If they were to make them like the Goblins where we do find an entire city they take up residence in, or the Mi'qote/Au Ra tribal area that everyone just hangs out at, without worshiping a specific primal, then they might actually be good candidates for playable races. If however they do introduce a primal for them, then it's likely the lupin will just be yet-another-beast-tribe. At present they do not have any hangout, so maybe after we rebuild the Doman Enclave we might see more of them.

[Maeka]

Only problem with Lupin in the game, is their faces.... their muzzles don't move. They're half hanging open like they're wearing a mask. They'd have to fix that and make very complex animations to actually make their mouth look realistic (at least as realistic as the other races).

Because right now, the Lupin that are currently in game look terrible. When I heard that Lupin existed I was excited to meet one, and when I did, I see this derpy dog-morph standing in front of me with his jaws half open and even when he "talks", said jaw barely moves. I think even WoW Playable Worgen look better.

No offense to SE but it looks like they were kinda like "meh this is just an NPC race, we don't need to put as much detail into this as the playable races have". I mean, even the Ananta have nearly enough detail that they look like they could one day be playable.

Lupin? Not so much.

I think I've seen better facial animation from the namazu ......

[Rofel]

I believe they would improve things IF making it a playable race but I dunno if that would take a lot of work since as a WoL we mostly nod lol!

[Maeka]

I believe they would improve things IF making it a playable race but I dunno if that would take a lot of work since as a WoL we mostly nod lol!

There's all kinds of subtle facial expressions in a player character's repertoire. Lips, eyes, eye brows all play a part. The smiles, the angry glares, etc. And yes sometimes our PC actually talks (though what they say is not actually displayed as a text bubble).

[Corue]

Demographic: I’m not going to avoid it. They’d appeal well to the furries.

No. No. No. No. No. A thousand times no. Literally the last demographic any self-respecting company would want to appeal to is furries for reasons that are best left unexplored in this thread. Never has any designer in the history of MMOs made a race based on the premise of "we need something furries will like".
If we get a beast race the last thing I'd like is some lazy "dog head on human body" race design to appeal to a small demographic. This is Final bloody Fantasy, I want something unique and different with that FF charm.


Cat girls in Shisui gear are bad enough already. I don't want to see neon-coloured dog people running about in their underwear.