Thread: 5.0 Job change wishlist

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

You're wrong. You know it, I know it, anyome with common sense knows it. I don't even feel the need to point out why, it's clear enough from your post you don't understand anything about WHM.

It's sad you've kind of forced me to respond to you as if you were a troll even though I don't believe you are one. The problem is you're so misinformed about how this game plays to the casual observer it seems... trolley.

Also please show me a hardcore raider that spams Medica II/Regen. Link a log or a video please. I'll wait.

Spare me the insults.

Go play a command mission as a DPS, and then compare it to a MSQ run as a DPS. Healers complaining about not getting lilies? How about not overhealing like everyone is standing in a lava floor.

Command mission:
Healer casts stone II until someone takes damage, then casts Lucid Dreaming, Largesse, and then casts Cure II on the player with damage, then resumes casting Stone and Aero. If more than one player takes damage, they immediately cast Medica II. Like, even I think this is stupid, because they reach for Medica II not when the party is at 50%, but at almost-full. They never cast Regen, Medica or Cure III.

In fact, the command mission healer casts Medica II when not even being level 50, and does so only when two players have been damaged greatly.


Otherwise they only cast Cure II to top up the tank.



MSQ, pretty much every time: WHM or AST casts Medica II/Aspected Helios immediately after the cutscene stops, and keeps casting it. No Lucid Dreaming, No Largesse, just casting it for whatever reason. Like I don't know who is giving these people advice, but there are far more players doing things as inefficient as possible. Same with all CT raids. Just because it's a faceroll content, doesn't mean you spam HoT's.





Which I will reiterate. The gauges are there to tell you how SE thinks players should be doing the job. If you want to play it inefficiently, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. They are not limit break bars. But please don't pretend that Yoshi-P hasn't made it clear on no less than a dozen separate occasions that they intended for healers to use Cure and Cure II (or Benefic and Benefic II.) The gauges and the command mission point directly towards using Cure II to heal. The command mission healer has essentially unlimited MP so they do not need Lucid Dreaming for anything but an Enmity dump. The command mission healer only DPS's when nobody is bleeding.

And don't be surprised if whatever they change to WHM and AST next pushes harder against the raider healer meta.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5la_...youtu.be&t=280


https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29

Originally Posted by Ceasaria

This method is for the beginners.

“overheal”, “needlessly” ?
Maybe because it’s the better way to heal teammate over time, don’t you think ?
And sorry, but with Cure I & II, you can overheal too (+ embrace overheal). And you are losing a lot of time to do so whereas you have hot + embrace to recover life of the tank/player with “raider meta”, and are free to do what you want during this time.

The lily system doesn't want you to overheal. The game is casual oriented, if they actually punished overhealing by ripping aggro away from the tank, the raider meta would disintigrate.

If I go into MSQ as a healer for the tomes, the only time I even use Medica II is to pull the mobs towards the center during the first Livia phase. MSQ does so little damage now that everyone has to be standing in every bad to need it. Like you don't even need it when the entire party stands in bad during the first encounter with Gaius in the Praetorium, and you don't need it with Nero either.

Yet, when the tank hasn't even pulled and the co-healer will pull out Medica II or Diurnal Aspected Helios, on trash, on bosses, even when waiting for Cid to blow open a hole in the wall. There is no logic to any of this.

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Let's just roll with the thought that SE created WHM strictly with a "heal only" mindset. They'd have to be pretty incompetent to not realize that the very same ogcds they gave WHM since SB has enabled them to do the very opposite of this identity and heal as little as possible.

Not to mention this is straight up shafting over half of all the other WHMs who actually want to contribute to their group and DPS, as the lily system doesn't benefit them at all.
Perhaps it's true. Perhaps they do want WHM to be a pure healer. But the way to do that isn't to just ignore the other half of the playerbase that would prefer to do otherwise. No other healer or tank is forced into a way to play like this, WHM shouldn't be either.

If they wanted the healer to be a pure healer and have no DPS capability at all, they would have removed the DPS capabilities. They haven't. If they wanted to put a hole in the current meta without torpedoing it, all they have to do is make HoT's rip enmity away from the tank whenever they're stacked or clipped. Hence regen OR medica II, not AND. The game never calls for two stacks of HoT's. Ever. Scholars don't have have them, and can't spam them.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Snip

If they wanted the healer to be a pure healer and have no DPS capability at all, they would have removed the DPS capabilities.

And if they would have done that, leveling a healer would be impossible. This is why since at least Everquest, healers have had some sort of decent damage capability.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Command mission:
MSQ, pretty much every time

Moro asked you to show them a hardcore raider healer who spams Medica II/Regens...

Command missions and MSQ are not where you find hardcore raid healers.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

the command mission point directly towards using Cure II to heal.

Command mission healers are Conjurers...........................they don't even have lillies and you do realize Conjurer's only have 4 healing spells right? Cure, Cure II, Medica, and Medica II. So of course they will use Cure II to direct heal? They don't have Regen, Tetra, Assize, Asylum, Bene, or Plenary.

If you are just going to reply to people with your usual tangents that have nothing to do with what they asked you then why bother to reply at all? Like I've said many many times before you always do this when confronted with something you can't argue.

Tangents, tangents, and more tangents of irrelevant stuff. Command mission CNJ's have nothing to do with raid healing or even end game healing for that matter for extremely obvious reasons. MSQ is level 50 where you don't even have anything to use Lillies on until level 52. None of this is end game healing.

What does level 50 MSQ healing and conjurer command mission healing have to do with level 60+ healing???

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Which I will reiterate. The gauges are there to tell you how SE thinks players should be doing the job. If you want to play it inefficiently, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. They are not limit break bars. But please don't pretend that Yoshi-P hasn't made it clear

What SE or Yoshida think has nothing to do with this topic.

Just because the devs design something one way or another doesn't mean the community has to smile and accept anything they do. If people want to ask for changes to lillies then they can do that.

Trying to argue about what someone else said they want to see changed about lillies just because YOU personally think they are okay is useless in the context of this thread.

This thread is asking for changes people want to see for 5.0. These posters don't care what you think about it or how the devs designed it. They are listing changes they personally want to see for whatever reason they want it.

Just so you know they could change lillies easily where the less optimized play style of using a lot of Cure I/II AND the more optimized play style of using regens effectively to make room for more DPS can both benefit from Lillies. So what is your problem with this? You'll still be able to play your less optimized style.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And don't be surprised if whatever they change to WHM and AST next pushes harder against the raider healer meta.

You don't even understand the raid healer meta, so...I don't understand like.... what is this anyway? Trying to threaten raiders or something with your opinions just because some WHM's want lillies changed for the better? /shrug

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you're response to me is going to to be "you're wrong" again, save it.

You are definitely wrong. You have no experience in savage or ultimate raids on healer so what makes you think you know anything about raid healer meta?

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you're response to me is going to to be "you're wrong" again, save it. The proof is in the pudding.

Let's just roll with the thought that SE created WHM strictly with a "heal only" mindset. They'd have to be pretty incompetent to not realize that the very same ogcds they gave WHM since SB has enabled them to do the very opposite of this identity and heal as little as possible.

Not to mention this is straight up shafting over half of all the other WHMs who actually want to contribute to their group and DPS, as the lily system doesn't benefit them at all.
Perhaps it's true. Perhaps they do want WHM to be a pure healer. But the way to do that isn't to just ignore the other half of the playerbase that would prefer to do otherwise. No other healer or tank is forced into a way to play like this, WHM shouldn't be either.

Originally Posted by Miste

Command mission healers are Conjurers...........................they don't even have lillies and you do realize Conjurer's only have 4 healing spells right? Cure, Cure II, Medica, and Medica II. So of course they will use Cure II to direct heal? They don't have Regen, Tetra, Assize, Asylum, Bene, or Plenary.

Please actually play a command mission before trying to explain how they work, because clearly you don't. The healers in the command missions have Medica II at ALL levels. They don't use it until the party has taken damage, which is the thing I've being saying and have not suggested they should be casting anything else. Rather the command missions illustrate how the developers think players should be healing as another example of why the WHM's gauge is also tuned to act on Cure and Confession stacks are from Party-Healing Medica/Medica II/Cure III and not from DPS and don't have any bearing on DPS, because you only get the Lily and Confession stacks from not overhealing. If you're playing the game by overhealing using HoT's , especially on easy content, then you of course aren't going to be able to make use of these gauges and don't benefit them because you're overhealing.

Originally Posted by Miste

If you are just going to reply to people with your usual tangents that have nothing to do with what they asked you then why bother to reply at all? Like I've said many many times before you always do this when confronted with something you can't argue.

Because the not-nice people on the forum don't want to have a discussion, they want a fight, and when presented with information that challenges their world view, the put their fingers in their ears and instead throw insults instead.

Originally Posted by Miste

Tangents, tangents, and more tangents of irrelevant stuff. Command mission CNJ's have nothing to do with raid healing or even end game healing for that matter for extremely obvious reasons. MSQ is level 50 where you don't even have anything to use Lillies on until level 52. None of this is end game healing.

What does level 50 MSQ healing and conjurer command mission healing have to do with level 60+ healing???

Because that is how SE and Yoshi-P has designed the healing. You don't throw away half your toolkit when you turn level 50. Look at the kind of comments people keep snarking out. "Oh the lily system is useless, because nobody uses cure" , and when I say I do, you're like "then you suck" rather than "oh well how do you get past X, when I have to spam so many HoT's and oCD's to get past it?"

Originally Posted by Miste

What SE or Yoshida think has nothing to do with this topic.

Just because the devs design something one way or another doesn't mean the community has to smile and accept anything they do. If people want to ask for changes to lillies then they can do that.

The way SE and Yoshi-P sees it has everything to do with the topic see it says "Job change wishlist" not "changes I don't want SE to make, please don't read". The person who first posted about lilies in this thread, also posts nothing but "the lilies suck" in every post they make, so they want the job to change to appease a small portion of players who aren't playing the job correctly in the first place.

Originally Posted by Miste

Trying to argue about what someone else said they want to see changed about lillies just because YOU personally think they are okay is useless in the context of this thread.

This thread is asking for changes people want to see for 5.0. These posters don't care what you think about it or how the devs designed it. They are listing changes they personally want to see for whatever reason they want it.

Just so you know they could change lillies easily where the less optimized play style of using a lot of Cure I/II AND the more optimized play style of using regens effectively to make room for more DPS can both benefit from Lillies. So what is your problem with this? You'll still be able to play your less optimized style.



You don't even understand the raid healer meta

Oh, I know what the raid healer meta is, is the meta bad players learn from raiders and then try to use on every piece of content because it gives them the max deeps. s/ , you know on content that isn't bloody contest. The same players complain about having nothing to do because they are making it so they have nothing to do. The same players complain about content when it's not even 3 days old because they already sucked the fun out of it with a parser.

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

There have never been two ways to play White Mage. It functions precisely the same as every healer; you maximize the number of oGCD and Regen ticks you can exploit to avoid casting heals as much as possible. The fact you cite "raider meta" only to subsequently claim they overheal demonstrates your profound lack of understanding. Good raid healers have little overhealing because they allow HoT to tick people up. Cure II spam, meanwhile, is an absolute waste of your MP which can be better spent on Stone IV or Aero II/III. Fishing for free Cures is even worse due to you using your least efficient heal. The odds are staggeringly low you will ever actually benefit from that, especially when White Mage has far superior options at its disposal. For example sake...

Cure I: 10,441
Regen: 3600-3800 range per tick

Even at the lowest estimation, that Regen will tick for 25,200 at the cost of only 240 more MP. Unless the tank needs immediate HP, Regen is VASTLY better than Cure I and even Cure II. Granted, the latter at least has more value.

Regardless, what the hell qualifications do you have to speak on "Raider meta?" You aren't a raider, do not even try to optimize, spent the better part of pre-Stormblood being laughed off the forums following your insistence White Mage heals in a manner it simply doesn't and yet you have the audacity to critique people who have not only theorycrafted healers but have Ultimate clears under their belts? At least you have White Mage leveled this time.

Hmm, I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage? Miss Kisai who has never dabbled in anything harder than a dungeon or Entropy's White Mage who used Cure I once in their clear of Ultimate.

Hmm I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage, Yoshi-P and the dev team who plays this way I've pointed out, or 4% of the player base who who raids with parsers then complains about healers being boring and complains that content is boring.

Why on earth would the developers ever listen to the raiders who aren't playing the content correctly in the first place, and use parser tools as a crutch? There is no way in hell that the developers can or even should listen to the people using the parsers, because what the parser users are asking for is for content to be nothing but DPS checks that you can just stand still to maximize dps with because your ego will be bruised if you don't get some high marks on a third party site using a parser that only guesses how HoT's and DoT's work to begin with. The parser also guesses how long combat is, thus very trivial things will have large differences.

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So~ When are you going to post a video of Swallow's Compass / Hell's Lid / Fractual Continuum (Hard) so you can show us how you play WHM properly? I'd love to review that thoroughly like I did in the past with a previous video.

In all seriousness, the Lily system needs rework because the habits it teaches you effectively tells you to ignore optimizing 95% of the rest of your kit. If we're supposed to only use Tetra / Assize / Asylum when we have three lilies, we'll probably only end up using them one time each during the course of a raid encounter.

The CD reduction on lillies mean nothing if you aren't firing the CDs on cooldown but we have trouble generating Lillies because we can only get them from using single target heal spells. How counter intuitive is that?

Why should I post a video here? So I can take the insults from you guys again and have my channel videos downvoted out of spite because none of you can be bothered to watch it for more than 7 seconds. No thanks. All that experience showed me is that maybe three people care about legitimately offering advice and everyone else is just a jerk who wants to lay in a burn.

I get through all the content I want to play on WHM if I'm collecting tomes or raid rewards.

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

We're not complaining in every thread. This is a thread asking for what we wanted, I mentioned the lily system. If debates like this happen just over the mere mention of lilies though, I guess that tells you what we think of it.

Which is, players who don't play the game like SE/Yoshi-P want you to, and instead play it like a green DPS, complain about it like it's a limit break gauge and they're somehow missing out on something. If you don't want to play it the way SE wants you to, you're not being forced to. But please don't pretend like the Lily gauge doesn't work, because it does. Wow look shorter CD's on the level 52-60 (the HW skills) Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton. Of which the lilies aren't stopping you from casting them to begin with.

What the supposedly "best" raiders do, has a detriment the rest of the player base when they're told to do things, that only are ever true when you're undergeared for the content, and is only about optimizing for speed to beat the enrage timer so you have better parses than the other players who use the same parser.

I'd really like to hear what the Japanese raider meta is because Yoshi-P and the developers obviously pay attention to them and not us, and they have larger clear rates.

Originally Posted by Trunks

Okay let's get back on topic with the saintlike generosity of assuming you're correct.

WHM: In 5.0 I'd like them to make this be a Job that's not destined by design to utterly suck for people who press all of their buttons instead of half of them.

Oh you know it's not going to end until we have a 50 page thread again. If anyone reading this decides "oh I need to lay in my sick burn" just don't. I'm not telling you you're playing the job wrong, I'm telling you SE is telling you are playing the job wrong and have not done anything to help or hinder your meta, so please leave it alone.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because the not-nice people on the forum don't want to have a discussion, they want a fight, and when presented with information that challenges their world view, the put their fingers in their ears and instead throw insults instead.

There's a lot of irony in this statement coming from you - because you are guilty of doing the exact same things when people challenge your world view on how WHM healing should function.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Why should I post a video here? So I can take the insults from you guys again and have my channel videos downvoted out of spite because none of you can be bothered to watch it for more than 7 seconds. No thanks. All that experience showed me is that maybe three people care about legitimately offering advice and everyone else is just a jerk who wants to lay in a burn.

I get through all the content I want to play on WHM if I'm collecting tomes or raid rewards.

Don't you think that's indicative of something? Even if the OF only represents a small percentage of players, a rather large percentage of these posters disagree with your opinion on several levels. Don't you know that's telling of your own opinion in the matter? Perhaps you shouldn't feel your opinion is law and everyone else who disagrees with you is a troll or looking to fight as all that does it make you look worse.

Take that from someone who legitimately watched your entire 55+ minute Antitower and gave a thorough opinion on everything I thought you both right and wrong.

And yes, I did watch all 55+ minutes of it.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Please actually play a command mission before trying to explain how they work, because clearly you don't. The healers in the command missions have Medica II at ALL levels. Rather the command missions illustrate how the developers think players should be healing

Please actually read my post.

You think I haven't done command missions? I'd like to know where you got that idea from? Just because I raid you assume I don't do other content? You made an incorrect assumption.

I do every single piece of content in this game except for Ultimate...and well Lord of Verminion, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who did do that anyway.

Where did I say that the command mission healers don't have access to Medica II below level 50?

Point it out in my post.

Where did I say it?

I can wait......oh....it's not there.... Want to know why? Because I've done command missions and I know they can use it pre-50, but that fact had nothing to do with my point. Fancy that...

But, you know I assumed you would do this. You can't find any flaw in what I countered you with so you go off on things I never said or have nothing to do with anything like what level the CNJ in command missions can use Medica II. Can you explain what relevance that has?

I'd like you to show me a video of a command mission CNJ using Assize, Regen, Asylum, Bene, Plenary, or Tetra. What level they use Medica II at has nothing to do with my point. My point was that a CONJURER doesn't have access to any of these spells/abilities that I listed since they are all WHM ones.

So, no, command missions are definitely not illustrating how a WHM should heal...since it is a CNJ and not even a WHM. This is really obvious.

A CNJ is not a WHM and using a CNJ healing kit to say that WHM should heal like that is beyond ridiculous. A CNJ only has half the spells and abilities that a WHM has.

Not to mention your whole argument started about lillies and CNJ doesn't even have lillies. So seriously what were you expecting here?

You just can't admit when you are wrong.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because the not-nice people on the forum don't want to have a discussion, they want a fight, and when presented with information that challenges their world view, the put their fingers in their ears and instead throw insults instead.

Are you sure you aren't projecting? This sounds like you are talking about yourself as well.

You don't usually throw insults, but you sure know how to work the passive aggressive.

Also before you volunteer to throw me in there too, I am totally fine with admitting I am passive aggressive sometimes.....to people who do it to me first and I have a great memory. I am of the belief that you don't dish out passive aggressiveness if you are afraid of getting some back at you.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because that is how SE and Yoshi-P has designed the healing. You don't throw away half your toolkit when you turn level 50. Look at the kind of comments people keep snarking out. "Oh the lily system is useless, because nobody uses cure" , and when I say I do, you're like "then you suck" rather than "oh well how do you get past X, when I have to spam so many HoT's and oCD's to get past it?"

Never said you throw it away, simply there are better ways to play healers in which you do your best to optimize in a way to avoid overhealing and also avoid using GCD heals. The top healers AVOID overhealing which is why you showed already you don't understand it since you claim raid healer meta is to "overheal needlessly"

I don't condone anyone telling someone else that they suck, but it is a fact that you are playing a less optimized way if you rely on Cure I/II instead of the other tools you have. It's just a fact about how the game is designed. That's it. Obviously there are bad ways to convey this.

If you don't want to optimize? That's fine. Since you don't do savage/ultimate where it is expected.

I really hope you are not accusing ME of saying you suck, because if you look at my post I did not say that anywhere.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The person who first posted about lilies in this thread, also posts nothing but "the lilies suck" in every post they make, so they want the job to change to appease a small portion of players who aren't playing the job correctly in the first place.

Exiled just really wants things for WHM and, yeah, she is maybe a bit too enthusiastic with how much she posts it, but she can post in here with her job change wishes if she wants. So too bad? Just because you complain that she wants to change lillies do you really think she'll stop for you? She can post what she wants. /shrug

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Oh, I know what the raid healer meta is, is the meta bad players learn from raiders and then try to use on every piece of content because it gives them the max deeps. s/ , you know on content that isn't bloody contest. The same players complain about having nothing to do because they are making it so they have nothing to do. The same players complain about content when it's not even 3 days old because they already sucked the fun out of it with a parser.

Your bias is showing....


Also you should REALLY read what Saito said and think on it. He posted a very thorough post before I could finish this one.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Oh, I know what the raid healer meta is, is the meta bad players learn from raiders and then try to use on every piece of content because it gives them the max deeps. s/ , you know on content that isn't bloody contest. The same players complain about having nothing to do because they are making it so they have nothing to do. The same players complain about content when it's not even 3 days old because they already sucked the fun out of it with a parser.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Hmm I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage, Yoshi-P and the dev team who plays this way I've pointed out, or 4% of the player base who who raids with parsers then complains about healers being boring and complains that content is boring.

Theory vs Practice, who win ?
Healers boring ? just wow.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Wow look shorter CD's on the level 52-60 (the HW skills) Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison, or Tetragrammaton.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'd really like to hear what the Japanese raider meta is because Yoshi-P and the developers obviously pay attention to them and not us, and they have larger clear rates.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...d_the_raiding/