Trying to understand the complaints about DRK

[Hierro]

No. PLD isn't like DRK; more MP doesn't necessarily translate into more Holy Spirits.



No it didn't, and neither would DRK, in all likelihood. But let's not pretend that a DPS positive TBN would be used like Sheltron--TBN's limiting resource is its cooldown, but Sheltron's is the Oath gauge.

I think you misunderstand the MP gain part. If you gain enough MP between req windows, you can use an additional unbuffed HS. Do this enough over time, and suppose you do 3, then that replaces an entire combo. That is a substantial DPS gain.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

I think you misunderstand the MP gain part.

I didn't.

The point is that you can't just convert "extra" MP into potency wily-nilly as PLD; it's not that simple. So, it's incorrect to consider Sheltron a "strict potency gain" on those grounds.

[Chrono_Rising]

No. PLD isn't like DRK; more MP doesn't necessarily translate into more Holy Spirits.

Using sheltron enough can provide enough mp to get more Holy Spirits, whether or not that is useful depends on the GCD you end on. Sheltron on its own is neutral, the bonus mp, shield swipe procs, and GCD manipulation are other positives to this skill. There are times where the bonus mp from sheltron is actually useful, and sometimes its not, but when its not useful it isn't a negative.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Using sheltron enough can provide enough mp to get more Holy Spirits, whether or not that is useful depends on the GCD you end on. Sheltron on its own is neutral, the bonus mp, shield swipe procs, and GCD manipulation are other positives to this skill. There are times where the bonus mp from sheltron is actually useful, and sometimes its not, but when its not useful it isn't a negative.

Yes, I'm well aware; I said "necessarily" for a reason.

[Chrono_Rising]

Yes, I'm well aware; I said "necessarily" for a reason.

More mp on dark knight doesn't necessarily translate to more potency either. Maybe they are more alike than you think.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

More mp on dark knight doesn't necessarily translate to more potency either.

That's true, but that's not the point.

[Chrono_Rising]

That's true, but that's not the point.

That is fine, but the point people are speaking about is using a skill optimally. We can say Souleater is a potency gain without qualifying that it is only a potency gain when used as the combo finisher of a three tier combo. We can say that more mana translates to more mp on dark knight without qualifying exactly how and when it should be used. Sure, poping Sheltron on its own doesn't net you anything except mana and maybe a proc, but when those resources are used strategically it is a potency gain.

More to the point, I believe that Lyth is pointing out that using tools properly on other tanks does net a positive dps gain, so why are we so afraid of doing the same on dark knight? I don't think their point really rested on this idea of "strictly positive", it is based on proper usage of skills (and even at times frequent use in the case of sheltron) leads to positive results.

And as Aana said, these conversations always seem to revolve around TBN, but fixing this one skill is hardly the fix dark knight needs.

[Valdegarde]

And as Aana said, these conversations always seem to revolve around TBN, but fixing this one skill is hardly the fix dark knight needs.

I respectfully disagree, I do believe Dark Knight has other pressing issues still remaining, but I feel that TBN as it exists in its current form still creates quite a bit of contention among the playerbase and would benefit Dark Knight tremendously for being looked at. For example, with people who'd otherwise choose to main Dark Knight and possibly pick an alternate tank instead to not deal with Dark Knight's strange nuance in some of its skills such as Living Dead, TBN, Bloodspiller potencies, etc.

I'm not going to be ashamed to admit anymore, that I still find TBN very hard to use. Using it with tank busters is fine, but on auto attacks, I still miss it quite often since almost every fight is radically different and I don't always know when to gauge strings of 2-3 auto attacks to break it. And when it doesn't...boy, I feel like a failure as a tank, sitting there wasting MP and defense and especially offense. And for such a reactive skill, it seems to suffer heavily from server ticks, I cannot count how many times that a bosses' attack comes out seconds after I use TBN, hits me normally, TBN soaks the next hit (or doesn't) and there goes 50 blood and the healers have to watch me like a hawk.

Yet I feel very pressured to use TBN this way because it's what tanks are supposed to do, correct? Utilize their defensive capabilities to the utmost? TBN just on tank busters or easily predictable attacks seems like a waste, as many have mentioned already in this thread. And I think that's a bad thing. I do think I dislike this skill more than most, with how it's stripped away a lot of Dark Knight's other capabilities for a niche thing (think Red Mage and verraise, that's how I feel about Dark Knight and TBN), but I admit it's a really cool concept and I like when I can pull it off or have perfect TBN uptime in a fight. I just think there's still some major frustration involved with its current implementation and making it more reactive and less punishing wouldn't ruin Dark Knight's playstyle any more than it already has been.

If I'm going to talk about Dark Knight complaints, it's this feeling for me. TBN existing and having to sacrifice all of Heavensward Dark Knight for it, for a skill that feels like a sacrifice each time I use it, just sort of contributes to this tinge of Dark Knight being this rewardless-feeling playstyle that the other tanks don't suffer from. It's so cool to be able to Divine Veil early enough and have your Fight or Flight in sync for Goring Blade then Requiescat and a full string of Holy Spirits on Paladin, or a perfectly timed Inner Release that you're able to Thrill + Upheaval and Onslaught all during like a Trick Attack or something. Dark Knight, while I love it to pieces and still prefer it to the other tanks despite all this, feels like "do everything all the time, don't overflow MP or blood, Salted Earth 100% uptime and don't f#%@ TBN up or you just lost your relevance as a tank in this party"

I apologize for such a rant, but I had to get it all out. Judge me if you want, but I hope some other hopeful Dark Knight players can relate with these frustrations.

[InfiniDragon]

I know a lot of folks are on the fence about TBN, but it's the skill I feel the most sets DRK apart and I'd absolutely hate to see it get heavily changed/gutted into a generic shield or a Shake it Off clone.

I hope the inevitable rework in 5.0 leaves that skill alone, myself.

[Jhett_Magnum]

Pretty sure there was an interview where yoshi says DRK is fine and not being looked at. Time to adapt.