DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[RiyahArp]

Why are people so afraid of being told they need to improve? Certainly there are wrong ways and right ways to say it but if we are not meeting the standards necessary to get the job done then we either need to improve our game play or accept that we should be doing something else more suited to our skill level instead.

Notice how "fun" isn't really anywhere in there. Because both options really aren't fun. Trying to get good at a decent level means the opposite, losing your ideas of fun and following others ideas of how to play the game. It's often a lot of work. ANd quitting isnt fun either. Its either you get good for the rewards of it, or you quit for the rewards of it. Fun usually is in short supply

[HyoMinPark]

As always the metric should be:

Are bosses dying?

Yes? Don't worry about anything else.

I dislike this type of mindset purely because it makes it sound like it’s fine to do the bare minimum and never seek to improve beyond that. I find that a lot of individuals that think like this, think that it’s fine for them to go into a group of players that have a completely different mindset, and expect those others just adapt, because “the boss died, it’s no big deal”. I also disagree with this:

No? Start optimizing small mistakes first. Less deaths always helps.

...because, again, it implies that the bare minimum effort is all that one should put into things. And, once the boss dies, no more effort is required other than the “small optimization” that was done to go from wiping to clearing. I personally never stop optimizing, even long after I have a piece of content on farm; because that sort of playstyle is fun for me. And I surround myself with like-minded people who enjoy the same thing. If you (general “you”, here) want to play the “minimum effort” way, then okay...but find 7 other likeminded people to do it with instead of joining a group of players that very obviously want and/or expect more than just minimum effort.

I’ve had ludicrously low dps bog down mount farming before. That person may have been having a lot of fun mashing whatever buttons they pleased, but everyone else had to work extra hard to drag them across the finish line.

This is agree with 100%. It is incredibly frustrating for those who want to do fast, quick, and easy clears when they’re farming content, to have to carry another player through the content because that one player doesn’t want to put in the same amount of effort that the others do. It’s fine if you want to play at the bare minimum, but do not join others that very clearly do not think or play that way—no matter what, something is going to clash between the two groups, and it usually does not result in anything pretty. I personally don’t understand the bare minimum mindset, but I know it’s there. Again, I just surround myself with other likeminded people that enjoy optimization.

Notice how "fun" isn't really anywhere in there. Because both options really aren't fun. Trying to get good at a decent level means the opposite, losing your ideas of fun and following others ideas of how to play the game. It's often a lot of work. ANd quitting isnt fun either. Its either you get good for the rewards of it, or you quit for the rewards of it. Fun usually is in short supply

What is fun is subjective. I find it fun optimizing and min-maxing every time I go into Savage, or even an Extreme primal. Beating my current best is fun for me, because it shows improvement, and improvement is a good thing in my opinion. Different people find different things fun, and that’s fine. But, as I said above, my issues lie with those who do not like this type of playstyle, but they jump into content that very much requires it—or at least more than just a very basic rotation. I do not force my optimized playstyle on people, so I would think it respectful if those who like the “bare minimum” do not try to force it on me by joining my farm groups that very clearly ask for high efficiency.



Nothing I am saying here is that there’s something wrong with being a more laid-back player that doesn’t do hard content or Savage content, or who doesn’t want to min-max—I have plenty of friends in FFXIV that have no interest in Savage, no interest in chasing their damage and min-maxing to the extent that I do, and even some that have never done an Ex primal while playing since ARR Beta. I just don’t like the ones that want to do the bare minimum, and jump into content that very obviously requires more than just the bare minimum (like Savage) while expecting the rest of the party to just carry them because “that’s what I think is fun”. I understand a lot of people don’t want to optimize in the same way I do, but I still cannot understand the mindset of “Well, the boss eventually died, and I’ve done all I need to do...I don’t care about self-improvement or any of that nonsense”. It just doesn’t make any sense to me, but different folks different strokes.

There is also something to be said for individuals that do not participate in high-end content, or care about things like optimization/min-maxing, but they try to butt into conversations concerning just those two things, and acting like they know what they’re talking about when it’s very clear they do not—I have been in a few of these throughout my time here on the OF. I generally do not harbor much ill-will towards them, but I wish that they would not try to speak on things that they clearly do not know much about...or blatantly spread misinformation such as improper use of AST sects or that the enmity meter on your party list is an excellent way to tell who is dealing the most damage in a party.

I don’t know. I feel like I’m rambling right now because I am tired and my mind is sort of all over the place at the moment. Hopefully what I have said makes sense.

[RiyahArp]

IWhat is fun is subjective....

No, I understand this. But the problem is that the current definition of bare minimum is actually decently skilled, considering they do this 4k in Savage, which is one hit kill murderland.

When you talk about improving from this, its a lot of work and very little fun. Usually getting good at a serious level in anything is like that. It's not fun to play chopsticks or play music you hate on the piano because it trains you. It's not fun memorizing chess games till your head swims. It's not fun going to the gym religiously and eating only what is approved for you to eat. There's a strong warning to never let your hobbies or side projects be your job, because you lose the fun part by chasing the mastery part. You do get the rewards from that, beating savage, etc. But people are like "o why dont people git gud" but never really get that past a point for a person, its really tough.

Like try to get gud at something you are mediocre at. Its hard!

[HyoMinPark]

No, I understand this. But the problem is that the current definition of bare minimum is actually decently skilled, considering they do this 4k in Savage, which is one hit kill murderland.

Current averages in Savage are actually above 5,700, going upwards of 6,300+ at the 75th percentile; it’s slightly lower at the 50th percentile, with a range of 5,400 to 6,000. 4,000 was the average in Deltascape—I would have to look up the old percentiles to give you the ranges on 75th and 50th. And not everything in Savage is a 1-hit KO; some things are (God Kefka’s Wings of Destruction), but not everything, and party mitigation via shields, SiO, Divine Veil go a long way to make things even more survivable. Now, a DPS taking a tankbuster is going to die, with or without mitigation, but there are things that do not outright kill you unless you fail the mechanic multiple times.

With regards to the 4k damage in Savage remark, I addressed earlier in the thread that the number itself is dependent on a variety of factors, all of which need to be considered before one can truly label it as good or bad, optimized or not optimized. In the scenario of a DPS in full BiS, 4,000 DPS in V8S is poor; there is something that needs to be worked on there. In the scenario of a DPS that is wearing old 330/340 gear, depending on their job 4,000 DPS would not be too terrible—however, they should really seek to gear up a bit before jumping into current Savage to make not only their lives easier, but the lives of their party members; and there is always room for improvement to make the number better.

4,000 DPS also has different levels of acceptability in other content. In more casual content (dungeons, 24-mans, 8-man Normal Modes, or even Extreme primals), I personally wouldn’t consider 4,000 too terrible; it’s about what I would expect out of those pieces of content, and I’m not one to really care about optimization in there outside of “please AOE the trash pulls”, “heal/raise when you need to”, and “if a tankbuster is coming, please use a cooldown/please use your cooldowns in general” (even though I still try to do my personal best because I just can’t help myself). Now, on the other hand, a SAM in TsukuEx with 360/370 gear and the Tsukuyomi weapon...it is a bit unacceptable for them to be sitting at 2,800 DPS against a BRD that, while full BiS, is doing almost 5,000 with a death. There is a huge problem there, and I cannot help but take issue with it (particularly when the SAM is boasting about how good he is, and how the BRD sucks).

When you talk about improving from this, its a lot of work and very little fun.

Maybe for some, but it isn’t not fun for me. Sure there are failings and/or set backs, but you keep trying. Because, if you don’t, then what was the point of all the effort you put into it? If you decide it’s not worth it, then by all means, drop it and move on. But if you think it is, why not keep at it?

[Rokke]

I don’t know. I feel like I’m rambling right now because I am tired and my mind is sort of all over the place at the moment. Hopefully what I have said makes sense.

For what its worth, I get you. As someone who was carried by very kind friends back in HW, I know what the scramble of a party trying to cover my weaknesses sound like on discord chat lol If too many people were lagging behind or if the team wasn’t capable of making up the difference and then some, we would very possibly not have gotten the clear. Nowadays I don’t join farm parties till I’ve got the mechanics memorized from clear parties. Personally, I see putting in effort as being polite - I don't want to waste people's time :P

[Maeka]

I'm of mixed minds about this whole kinda thing...

First, yeah I can understand the players running Roulettes, Delta/Sigma and junk for stuff like mounts, and they get frustrated if things are taking too long. Hey I get that. But on the other hand...

The Game doesn't come with any kind of way for a player to know their own DPS, and your average player is probably not going to mess around with parsing, especially if they have no intention of ever stepping foot into a Savage Raid, and in fact, some players might be leery of using such programs because of SE's repeated "Don't use 3rd Party Software with the game!" warnings.

I'm not saying someone would get banned over parsing, as people have obviously been using said tools for quite awhile now and they don't get banned, but yet I could understand how a Sprout might be intimidated, and decide to play it safe and not mess with such stuff.

And as others have said, there are so many factors into what makes your DPS. Your weapon, for example. SE consistently makes weapons the hardest things to get because they have such a huge impact on your performance. But yet, if you're some unlucky joe who can never seem to get drops anywhere and you're not really enjoying the wipefests at the Ex Primals (I am hesitant to try one myself because I don't really enjoy that kind of play where you have to play almost perfectly to clear it) and maybe they don't want to wait 7 weeks to get 7 crystalloids, and maybe falling asleep at the NM train at Eureka isn't the most fun thing to do either...... how ELSE are you supposed to get a weapon, then? Kinda wish SE wasn't so stingy with weapons.

So, those joes with the 330 deltascape weapons... yeah I can understand if they are doing crap DPS even if they're wearing full 345 with the rest of their gear.

As someone mentioned above... Casters.

I've not gotten one to 70 yet, but Dear Lord, the AoE dodging is ANNOYING for anything that has to stand and cast. Start casting, circle appears under your feet. Oop, gotta move. Start casting, another circle appears under your feet. How exactly am I supposed to do any DPS, again? One of the reasons I've not been playing BLM, to be honest. I got it to some Lv40 and some of the bosses in the dungeons were just plain annoying because you have to keep dodging and it screws up your casting constantly.

I couldn't imagine trying to do something like Castrum Fluminis as a caster. No thanks. You can count me out on that.

Now, nowhere in this am I saying that one shouldn't try to improve, at least a little, if they are doing subpar DPS for their gear level... but yet at the same time, I don't like to shame people, because honestly we all come to a video game to have fun, and when you sign up for DF, you should always be prepared to get into a random with clueless people or people who do nothing but mash buttons.

Every time I Q up for a dungeon, I am prepared to carry people, and I generally tend to not get annoyed if I have to carry somebody, as long as we're not constantly wiping. A few wipes I can understand, but I would hope to see improvement. If not, well... they'll probably ragequit and we'll get better replacements, lol

[Jijifli]

Accept people's differences, eat a damn snickers and stop with the elitist "I'm better than you so git gud" attitude that this generation of players seem to have.

I'll remember your wise words the next time I get the Aeolian Edge only NIN from Doma Castle. It's just his playstyle, so I shouldn't tell him how to play properly. I'm just some elitist who wanted to not take 15 extra minutes through the dungeon.

[Alaray]

I'm of mixed minds about this whole kinda thing...

The Game doesn't come with any kind of way for a player to know their own DPS

The game doesn't really teach players too well, no, but there is an in-game way to gauge whether or not your damage output is going to be alright for pieces of content you want to do (Stone, Sea and Sky). Yes, the game does not actually take you directly to it, but it is a good tool and it's normally one I'd recommend for someone who can't use a parsing tool/doesn't wish to use a parsing tool.

Generally, if you can kill the dummy you know your class and rotation well enough to go into that encounter. Of course, in the encounter, things like optimization come into play (as do other things, like melds, food, potions, raid buffs, etc...) and one major optimization tool is finding ways to increase uptime on the boss. In a learning environment, damage in general will be a lot lower as people are still learning the mechanics and that's fine.

In a farm party, however, it'll be expected that a player can pull their weight in the group and not hold it back. And, generally, a lot of people consider 5k~ the base minimum for pulling weight as a DPS for the current tier of gear. Since the goal of a farm party is to quickly and efficiently kill the boss, and if someone enters into one without being prepared to do that, then they shouldn't have gone into that group.

And as others have said, there are so many factors into what makes your DPS. Your weapon, for example.

So, those joes with the 330 deltascape weapons... yeah I can understand if they are doing crap DPS even if they're wearing full 345 with the rest of their gear.

Weapon is a factor to consider, as is gear in general. You can do fantastic damage output with what tools and gear you have available for that ilvl, but does that mean someone in 330 gear should go into O8S? No.

If you're in gear that's too low for the content, then you won't be able to perform in the content because it's not tuned to that gear level. It's not a player issue at that point, but just a situation of needing to utilize available avenues to gear oneself up (Crafted gear/Sigma Normal gear/Eureka gear/Byakko Weapons/Tomestone items/Tsukiyomi weapons/etc...)

This doesn't have something to do with a skill-level, this is just a "you need to take steps 1 through 10 before jumping from 0 to 11."

As someone mentioned above... Casters.

I couldn't imagine trying to do something like Castrum Fluminis as a caster. No thanks. You can count me out on that.

There are players who are able to do extremely well on these encounters who play casters, from what I'm reading, it just seems to me that the particular role isn't one you'd enjoy to play at that level -- and that's fine, everyone has different preferences for playstyle and that's why there's a multitude of classes that offer different ones to choose from. But it doesn't mean "casters must really suck here" it's just a different approach to the fight and different things to learn through the fight.

Now, nowhere in this am I saying that one shouldn't try to improve, at least a little, if they are doing subpar DPS for their gear level... but yet at the same time, I don't like to shame people, because honestly we all come to a video game to have fun, and when you sign up for DF, you should always be prepared to get into a random with clueless people or people who do nothing but mash buttons.

Every time I Q up for a dungeon, I am prepared to carry people, and I generally tend to not get annoyed if I have to carry somebody, as long as we're not constantly wiping. A few wipes I can understand, but I would hope to see improvement. If not, well... they'll probably ragequit and we'll get better replacements, lol

To be honest, dungeons/normal trials/normal raids I never really care about the performance of the people around me. There's no enrage in these encounters (well, I guess besides the Steps of Faith?) and I'm aware of what I signed up for when I queued in the first place.

But a lot of this discussion is centered around higher-end content (EX Primals > Savage at least), and those fights are a DPS race (they all, generally, have an enrage on them) and some bosses have miniature DPS checks (O7S/Phantom Train for example). And if DPS in the encounter cannot pass the bar for those mechanics, or for the enrage, then in order to complete the encounter they should work to improve their own gameplay and take the time to practice on the dummies made available.

At the end of the day, yes tanks hold the boss and mitigate hits. Healers are expected to use their healing buttons at some point, and DPS are expected to output enough damage to offset the likelihood for enrage. (at the basic level and only considering the roles themselves).

Granted, I'm sure people would not enjoy running content with a tank who doesn't know how to generate adequate threat, I'm also sure people would not enjoy content where a healer is not healing the party at all and everyone is dying. Everyone, ultimately, contributes to the success of a party and it's not fun in a higher-tier piece of content to feel like you're carrying someone the entire time when you're working on yourself still.

[MirielleLavandre]

One of the main issues here is that people need to rely on others to complete/'get good'. Unlike Dark Souls or Bloodborne, where your own skill will either lead to your death or your success, here - you have to hope the other 7 or so people are on par with what the fights entail. I don't raid in FF14 (and haven't in WoW for quite awhile due to not having time to commit to statics b/c of 4 boys). but I firmly believe that if there was a way for all players to see their own performance (via a non-ACT parser), then we'd all be better off. DS3 and such let you know how well or how bad you're doing by death -- FF14 not so much since you can be carried. If people don't know they're doing 4k dps in 360+ gear since they're on PS4 or not running programs, how else can they learn to improve?
'

[Maeka]

Well, yeah, if you're talking about Savage, EX, or hardcore raiding, then yeah.

You gotta know your stuff before you go in there, absolutely.

There's a reason why I don't go there. One, my gear blows. Two, I don't really have hours to spend in doing the things I'd need to do to get ready for such content. And three, when I sit down to play, it's usually when I'm tired, or there's always Something wrong. Lately my left shoulder has been giving me all kinds of problem and there's rarely a time where I don't feel a bunch of dull soreness from it.

Or a couple months ago, I was having headaches rather often.

That kinda thing.

So yeah, I won't enter the more hardcore endgame content because I know I'm not cut out for it. I'll stick to my normal Duty Finder, which I know I can do well enough in that hardly anybody notices or says anything. In fact, I get commendations rather often. Pushing 800 by now, out of 550 dungeons. So apparently, I don't suck That bad, lol. I've even gotten a few even when playing DPS (which I do rather rarely).