DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[KaivaC]

Saw a comment recently that's been making me think for a good portion of the day - obviously, this is more tuned towards Savage raiding, but I suppose it could be applied to normal fights as well. Obviously, with pretty much all top DPS having BiS, they are expected to be around the 6-8k range, depending on the fight and class and the right static. Let's take that last part out and go with a purely PUG environment. Let's say the average DPS is currently 355.

If they are hitting 4k worth of damage, does this automatically make them a garbage tier player? I'm curious because something like this being said stood out to me, so I wanted to know what the others thought. Me personally - there's some ring of truth to it, though I don't wholly agree with the sentiment, but it's not entirely wrong.

edited: To clarify, as a 4K DPS myself (Monk), I can agree that because I am only hitting 4K, I am definitely doing something wrong myself. Obviously, not all DPS are the same and some do require a certain team comp in order to be fully effective. Whereas I am not saying that I personally think that players currently only managing 4K, I do wonder how many do accept or agree with the sentiment that these types of players fall into that category of 'garbage tier'. Hence, the purpose of this discussion. What are your feelings on the matter?

[SeriousxSarcasm]

Mmmm, I want to say no? I don't raid personally (garbage computer stops me), but I have a lot of raiding friends that progress current content and are always trying to give tips. In PUG groups your DPS will suffer severely compared to statics who know each other's playstyles inside and out. That I'm aware of 4-6K is considered "decent," (the high end of 4K, mind you), 6K+ is someone who knows damn well how to optimize, but maybe your group comp isn't ideal, maybe you have that one derpy tank that everyone needs to compensate for, etc, etc.

Keep in mind too the forums and whatever have a really skewed view of actual raiding lol. Very rarely do I see many actual raiders be as uptight about this, because when faced with a giant wall of Bahamut Ultimate constantly beating you down, you gotta have a pretty high level of patience at the end of the day to keep doing it. I've only seen people properly labeled "garbage tier" when they refuse to improve themselves.

Edit: well, I guess more accurately, I don't raid OFTEN. I cleared o1s and took a crack at o2s before irl stuff, and I do EX primals at times, but I just personally consider myself more on the casual spectrum.

[NephthysVasudan]

I'd say this is borderline name and shame incurring...people should do something differently and not call it garbage tier.

[Sebazy]

If we're talking DPS alone, I wouldn't consider someone as garbage for 4k, and frankly I've done enough PF traps and such to simply not bat an eyelid unless someone's plumbing the depths of 2-3k, but then I'm not exactly a fan of branding people like that unless they truly deserve it for a multitude of reasons.

Depending on the encounter I'd consider that to be somewhere between mediocre and bad.

[Vidu]

...this again? You really cant let the topic go, eh? ;P

Short answer: Just pure numbers without context arent enough to judge a player. But low dps either means that the person isnt great at the fight in question yet (and therefor misses mechanics, diseangages/doesnt attack when they could, dies, gets hit with damage down debuffs etc. etc.) or has trouble with the basics of their class. Either way its someone with "room to improve" - and as long as the player in question is trying their best to improve, I wouldnt consider them "garbage" at all. Thats a lable I would only use for the type of player who doesnt care in the first place and whos fine with doing subpar damage. (The samurai who joined our O8S-pratice the other day and was still using an ilvl320 weapon was "garbage")

[SeriousxSarcasm]

Either way its someone with "room to improve" - and as long as the player in question is trying their best to improve, I wouldnt consider them "garbage" at all.

^ A thousand times this. Take all my likes. And literally everyone I've met who's serious about raiding shares this idea. My old FC raid leader was ranked 3rd best BRD on the server during HW progression and he didn't belittle sprout DPS for performing badly if they showed genuine desire to learn and get better.

[Lunaxia]

I'd say, it depends. I don't really like the term "garbage", because some people are trying their best. They just don't know the best openers or how to optimise their rotation, which isn't exactly a crime because it's not as if the game spells it out for you. You should hopefully have some idea of how the class works - so no Ice Mages or BRDs who won't play songs - but not knowing when exactly to use Barrage or perfectly snapshotting procs for top numbers doesn't make you garbage, at least in my opinion. I'd just say they're average level. To me, garbage is that guy who doesn't even finish his combos, uses AOE attacks on one mob and then screams at you when you try to give advice.

Those 6-7k top parses are from statics that practice relentlessly, have the best gear/ melds available and spend a lot of time optimising their rotations to line up openers and buffs for the highest numbers they can get. It's true that a misguided few hold this up as a given "standard" and designate anyone who falls short of it as trash, using it as a means of lauding their superiority over others, but it's far from the truth and they're not even worth paying attention to.

[RLofOBFL]

Okay 4K dps. Last Tier, 5k-5.5k was 90%~ in 340 gear. This tier 90%~ is about 6.2-6.7k dps in 370 gear.

Take O6S with essentially 100% uptime, enrage is 27,000ish rdps. Dps 16,000, healer/tank 11,000???. That's what, 4k from each tank and 1.5 from each healer? At that point you either meet enrage, or have tanks and healers carry you.

4k was considered okay at 340, the okay number now is 5k(imo). That's green-blue for every dps class. Shoot i did 4.9 on O6s with my 350 high spell speed(blm gear) rdm(was blue at the time), so if i can do that on some class I literally never play, I would say it's not absurd to expect 5k in 355 gear, or at least in that ballpark from someone on their main job.

Ofc I won't chastise someone with low dps but if we meet enrage enough w. no deaths they will be the first one kicked. I won't let one person hold back the entire party.

[Aomine1992]

5-5.9k is were most dps over 355 should be 6k+ is more so the realm where there is a nin in the party and everyone is lining up their buffs or you are a SAM/BLM or MNK, but alone I expect at least 5k and for bis players 5.2-5.5 except maybe BRD without a drg but that's a whole different story in itself....4k flat is just bad lol like not even Delta scape tier...people were hitting closer to 4.4 to 5k

[KaivaC]

@vidu this isn't something spurred on by own performance this time. I've personally stayed out of savage for a while so I can work at getting better. I'd say I have been spending about 3-4 hours per day on a dummy for the last two weeks. It's just a comment I saw recently that I took completely at face value and decided to spin off a conversation about.