Stop spamming Medica I & II/diurnal Aspected Helios

[kikix12]

EDIT: What really bothers me about this, are all the savage raiders thinking that they have some kind of right to talk down to people, especially those who have no intention of ever stepping into a savage raid like they're somehow better people.

I really hate that kind of entitlement and puffed ego, you know? It is really off-putting and I tend to react badly to it.

This whole, many-pages-long argument begun, apparently, with Ruf bringing up the double diurnal and purposefully overhealing as a "good" method of healing. Dunno how it turned into a forked argument of overhealing and damage, but whatever. That's not relevant for my post.

What matters is that, no matter what you, Ruf or anyone else may say, Savage/Ultimate are the two most difficult pieces of content in this game. They are the most challenging. They have everything the "lower" content have and more.

Now, what does that mean?! That what works in Savage/Ultimate will work EVERYWHERE. Meaning what works in Savage is universally good. What works in non-savage though...is another story. It may get you through the dungeons and easier trials, sure. But come across a harder one (still story, just harder) or simply a new one at a cap (aka Shinryu at release) and you'll fail repeatedly. A savage-level player will not. A player that does things that clearly do not work in savage, yes. Furthermore, even if you will compare the efficiency in a low-grade content like a random dungeon without any gimmick mechanics, the savage player will do stuff better, and everything else equal, the run will be easier AND faster for all involved. That is why what HyoMinPark among others is trying to give all this advice and spending 20 pages trying to explain this. It is BETTER and the more players will play the game better, the more fun it will be for everyone involved. Can't say that the content of this thread is rocket science though. Not even a cola-rocket one. It's something that every healer out there can stand to gain from.


This is math. The game is pure math. As such there is no anectodal evidence when taken even from a single case, so long as the actual numbers are used. It may be not representative of the average or the like, but it is guaranteed to be there as an option, thus valid. Players with high level of skill can show that skill with very high consistency, so they can repeatedly bring very significant results, more or less depending on the rest of the party. But as HyoMinPark and Bourne_Endeavor proved, the difference is significant.


Also, what is significant and what is not is more than just about clearing. 20% is 20%. That means that you get a "free run" every four you do. 10% is a free run every ten you do. Insignificant figures are ~1%, where the amount of time you save is lower than the expected amount of runs you'll make of that content. Otherwise it is significant. And it doesn't matter whether it's savage or just casual dungeon. Doing more content in the same amount of time gives more opportunities to enjoy yourself. More variety. If the run goes slow, I stop being able to pay attention. I make basic mistakes due to losing focus. And then I'm irritated that I cannot liven up to even my own average runs. I just have neither the patience nor the attention span nowadays to participate in a standard pull for almost as long as it takes to kill a boss with a good party. Yes, this may be a bit extreme case...but it proves the significance of people actually trying to be good in ALL content.

I jumped from topic to topic...sorry bout that. Oh well.

On a separate note...I like that image in your signature HyoMinPark. It's late here...don't judge.

[Sebazy]

EDIT: What really bothers me about this, are all the savage raiders thinking that they have some kind of right to talk down to people, especially those who have no intention of ever stepping into a savage raid like they're somehow better people.

I really hate that kind of entitlement and puffed ego, you know? It is really off-putting and I tend to react badly to it.

This subsection of the ongoing debate here is kind of silly and I know I'm going to regret dipping my toes into this one, but I'm bored and tired so eh

The whole thing has it's roots in the huge gulf that exists between 'casual' content ranging from dungeons, through regular/HM primals and up to 24 mans vs EX Primals to a lesser extent and Savage/Ultimate at the top end. They are very very different worlds and when you take one side of the coin away things can suddenly seem very different.

From Ruf's point of view, I can entirely appreciate his unshakeable faith in his play style and methodology even if it does make me cringe a little inside. At the end of the day, given the content he does, he's got absolutely no reason to think any different because the game never asks any better of him. There's a screenshot on Reddit of a Construct 7 kill that took over 28 minutes, it had just under 180 deaths. Is that a job well done? No not really, but it must be acceptable since they got the kill and the loot right?

Flip that coin over and it's a very different perspective, I look at Ruf's comments and immediate appreciate that he is neutering somewhere in the region of 40% of his healing throughput by stacking double Diu AST. I look at that 28 minute Construct 7 and get a sudden desire to eat the corner of my desk. I've played a high enough level to know that shaving a full minute of a 10 minute encounter by pulling my finger out is absolutely well worth it in high end play and frankly can actually make or break PF groups in some content. A12S is a great example of this, if a PF pug couldn't kill it before the second set of voids, most would usually wipe right there. That 30 second saving would literally make the difference between a wipe or a clear.

Is this mentality required for casual content? No not really, but we all have our own reasons for doing so, usually being some variant of either pushing through habit or just a simple desire to push oneself at all times even if it isn't actually needed.

[LadyKairi]

No I think savage is crap because its crap,theres a difference right there.Whats the next name you'll call me? I saw super ego, noob,you asked me if I was a god while quite obviously ppl claim to be greater than me in this thread so I must not quite be there as they all do kefka & savages (btw I hate kefka & no not only in this game)so whats next?
Super zero?! P.s: Performances are only half the battle, 25% can be attributes to your components & internet speed, please refer to ___> http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ag-disconnects & other issues threads, so 50 +25 that leaves 25% of knowledge,Your maths are wrong, all of them.




Enmity control & overhealing are two different things,as others mentioned already Ast get enmity minus vs other healers + you also have access to lucid dreaming.

Bypassing mechanics "isn't" e v e r y t h i n g

Think savage is crap because you are not good enough to participate in it. It's actual hard content that actually requires some brain power. You obviously would not be able to handle it, as you would get so overwhelmed and you'd get criticized by people who are actually good and don't want their time wasted. Also you obviously have ZERO idea how FFlogs works. It shows a lot more data than you think. Emnity control and over healing are not as different as you think. You heal too much, and you will rip hate easily. I did a mentor roulette and got titan ex. Had a white mage who thought ONLY using med 2 and not waiting for regens to run their course was a good idea, and they ended up taking tank busters to the face. Or back when I was learning neo exdeath. I hadnt figured out how much healing was needed, healed way too much, and I took a tank buster to my face. And thats WITH Lucid. Lucid did nothing to save me. And bypassing mechs is everything IMHO. Faster runs, skipping mechanics that would otherwise wipe people.... it makes a world a difference.

What really bothers me about this, are all the savage raiders thinking that they have some kind of right to talk down to people, especially those who have no intention of ever stepping into a savage raid like they're somehow better people.

I really hate that kind of entitlement and puffed ego, you know? It is really off-putting and I tend to react badly to it.

Yeah so you do savage raiding and crap. I'm supposed to be impressed by that? At the end of the day, you're another person sitting in front of a computer, same as me.

I have an issue with jerks who dis on my player skill for no reason, whom isn't a raider, and acts like hes better than everyone else. Who is also spreading false tips as fact. You hate on my player skill when I did nothing for it, I'm going to bite back. I bust my rump to get better every day.

[Miste]

Point still stands, is a mildly over-healing healer is not going to wreck a run. 10 seconds, 45 seconds, 60 seconds, 80 seconds, 160 seconds, don't really care either way. It's not going to break the run. It's just not a big enough deal for people to get their panties up in a bunch over.

Yes, but that wasn't the point others were making.

No one said it will wreck a run, simply that healers should be contributing as much as they can. It helps, it is beneficial to want to learn to play your job well and healers who do some DPS to help out are playing their job well and people simply wanted to correct the incorrect advice that you should just not care about overhealing. You should TRY to care about it and work to get better at avoiding over heals and utilizing your GCDs better.

I think it is unfair to assume simply because people encourage a better way of play means they are hugely upset or have their "panties in a bunch" over it.

EDIT: What really bothers me about this, are all the savage raiders thinking that they have some kind of right to talk down to people, especially those who have no intention of ever stepping into a savage raid like they're somehow better people.

I really hate that kind of entitlement and puffed ego, you know? It is really off-putting and I tend to react badly to it.

Yeah so you do savage raiding and crap. I'm supposed to be impressed by that? At the end of the day, you're another person sitting in front of a computer, same as me.

So...savage raiders can't reply to threads with information otherwise they are just talking down to people or a huge ego? I mean...that seems unfair don't you think??

So any time anyone offers better or more efficient ways of playing then they are just meanies with huge egos....If someone is passing around bad or objectively incorrect advice I would personally love if someone corrected them so I don't make the mistake of listening to the wrong thing.

Honestly after reading this post....sorry, but you have a really bad attitude. You also would fall into your puffed ego category since you get this upset and defensive about people offering information rooted in higher skill.

At the end of the day we all have to accept the fact that there are people more skilled than ourselves. I consider myself pretty good at this game and AST, but I know there are plenty of players better than me, know more than me, and can play AST better than me.

[Ghishlain]

I not once in this thread used ffxi as an example to back up my claims so please.

Oh, I know you haven't. I'm just basing my thought on the both your FFXI PvP signature picture and the fact good MP management and keeping up HoTs full time are trademarks to good FFXI healing. When back to back TP moves within seconds can easily wipe an entire melee party, being on point and fast with heals and reacting appropriately to the randomized selection of TP moves is a true boon to the party. Keeping people topped off for those unexpected but impending devastating moves is important.

Unfortunately, FFXI healing strategies don't apply to FFXIV. You need a different type of optimization and adaptability to heal well in XIV compared to XI. It's easy to keep people alive in XIV compared to XI. It becomes much more challenging to optimizing all the nuances of DPS while juggling healing priorities and player derps.

[Ayer2015]

IMO if you have to endured so many awful healers that you feel the need to make a forum post over it, queue as healer yourself.
Its no secret advice is often received negatively. If you think you can do better, and it frustrates you so much, take on the roll yourself.

[KaivaC]

EDIT: What really bothers me about this, are all the savage raiders thinking that they have some kind of right to talk down to people, especially those who have no intention of ever stepping into a savage raid like they're somehow better people.

I really hate that kind of entitlement and puffed ego, you know? It is really off-putting and I tend to react badly to it.

Yeah so you do savage raiding and crap. I'm supposed to be impressed by that? At the end of the day, you're another person sitting in front of a computer, same as me.

I'm actually in front of a TV....so yeah....bad assumption there.

Speaking of assumptions, it's bad to assume all Savage raiders share the same opinion. That's the thing I don't like. When folks are saying that overhealing too much is bad (which is true, you shouldn't be overhealing), people start to get all up in arms and say that Savage raiders are being condescending. Just like 90% of the forums, this was an opinion thread, and a lot of people came in with their opinions. It's not a puffed ego, it's a general consensus on the forums that having to keep everyone healed at full 100% of the time is a complete waste. Savage raiding came in because it was inevitable. You don't need to raid to know that it's a waste to overheal. You don't need to Savage to learn how to be more efficient.

Ruf going on a tear and putting their foot in their mouth is leaving a bad impression for sure because what they are saying is the highlight of how inefficient a good number of players feel they are being. If they want to overheal all the time in normal content, then that's them. But for Ruf to essentially say that what they are doing is perfectly acceptable and the manner in which they are defending said playstyle, shows their inexperience when they consistently clash with Hyo and Miste, both of whom I've personally seen are amazing healers. Ruf also stated that they could outdo Hyo, which is the epitome of them running their mouth without having the credibility or skills to actually back it up. If they want to stick with how they're playing, that's fine - but they shouldn't be going around and saying that some of the suggestions of healer efficiency is wrong, especially as they admitted they had no experience with Sigmascape Savage, and thus would have no point of reference.

tldr Ruf challenged Hyo many pages back, but they aren't going to back those words up.

[Maeka]

I think it is unfair to assume simply because people encourage a better way of play means they are hugely upset or have their "panties in a bunch" over it.

Nothing wrong with a little encouragement, sure... but some of the things said in this thread border the nitpicking over little details kinda thing. Especially when we're talking about content where such little details rarely matter much.

So...savage raiders can't reply to threads with information otherwise they are just talking down to people or a huge ego? I mean...that seems unfair don't you think??

Depends on the tone. When it feels like they're looking down their noses at us "filthy casuals" then no, I don't like it.

If they're respectful about it and if they're willing to accept that not everybody needs to play like a Savage Raider in casual content, then I don't mind it.

So any time anyone offers better or more efficient ways of playing then they are just meanies with huge egos....If someone is passing around bad or objectively incorrect advice I would personally love if someone corrected them so I don't make the mistake of listening to the wrong thing.

Not saying there's anything wrong with saying how something could be improved, but again, depends on tone.

Honestly after reading this post....sorry, but you have a really bad attitude. You also would fall into your puffed ego category since you get this upset and defensive about people offering information rooted in higher skill.

Perhaps it's the fact that I've had very bad experiences in WoW, that I have very little tolerance for elite players acting elite and looking down their noses at the casuals. I don't have anything against you, or anybody else here, but that kinda tone really rubs me the wrong way.

At the end of the day we all have to accept the fact that there are people more skilled than ourselves. I consider myself pretty good at this game and AST, but I know there are plenty of players better than me, know more than me, and can play AST better than me.

And at the end of the day, there are people who just want to simply have some casual fun in a game. There are days where I would like to see just how good I can play, and other days when I'm not feeling that great and I just want to be a little lazy, or maybe I don't trust my group and I overheal just so I don't have to deal with people dying and risking a wipe.

And I've never once pulled threat, ever.

Anyways I think I'll take a moment to step back and apologize, yes even to Hyo and that other girl, it's not that I have anything against either of you, but that whole "YOU MUST PLAY YOUR BEST AT ALL TIMES" stuff really irks me.

I get you are Savage Raiders, and hey that's fine. But you know, normal Duty Finder is not Savage Raiders. It's kinda like... a Pro Baseball Player stepping into some backyard casual game and pointing out every little thing that everybody is doing wrong.

Nobody wants that, and nobody cares about doing their absolute best performance. They're there just to have some fun.

Now obviously, if someone *asks* them for said info, or if the guy says "hey, I see you're having trouble catching the ball, maybe you should try...." that's fine. But if the guy starts nitpicking over little stuff, then yeah, it's going to turn sour in a hurry.

[MaloraYuki]

IMO if you have to endured so many awful healers that you feel the need to make a forum post over it, queue as healer yourself.
Its no secret advice is often received negatively. If you think you can do better, and it frustrates you so much, take on the roll yourself.

They do the point was 2 healer content. You know when as a healer you have to try and get along with another healer lol.

[TaleraRistain]

That is why what HyoMinPark among others is trying to give all this advice and spending 20 pages trying to explain this. It is BETTER and the more players will play the game better, the more fun it will be for everyone involved.

Will it? The assumption that you're making here is that more efficient means better. But sometimes the tactics used in Savage and Ultimate are brutal, unforgiving, and stressful. It may be efficient to let your tank get down very low before healing. But what is the effect on the tank when they fear they may die? What is the effect on the party when they worry they may wipe? When you boil it all down to efficiency, there's no room for banter, or funny derps that make everyone laugh, or silly macros, or any of the tons of other things that can make the party feel like a party. There's a subjective part to this because one person's fun is not the same as another person's fun. It's better for *you*. Not everyone.