Stop spamming Medica I & II/diurnal Aspected Helios

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Sounds like you're complaining to me.

You assume overmuch. Might want to get that checked out little missy. I stand by what I said. If you can't manage your MP well on WHM or any healer, then you are piss poor and not playing efficiently. WHM has great mp recovery tools at it's disposal...USE THEM. You also have Thin Air in later levels which makes dps a breeze with no mp cost.

I recently did the new Primal on White Mage. Let me tell you, after picking up dead people a good several times, DPSing and having to throw out sudden burst heals to get them topped before the next AoE, I was starting to bottom out. Even with Thin Air, I flat out had to slow my DPS because the raises and Medicas were eating away at what I had left. Obviously, this is far from ideal circumstances; speaking more to how bad the party was, but those parties exist. And if you try to save them, even MP Goddess White Mage will run out.

[MOZZYSTAR]

I recently did the new Primal on White Mage. Let me tell you, after picking up dead people a good several times, DPSing and having to throw out sudden burst heals to get them topped before the next AoE, I was starting to bottom out. Even with Thin Air, I flat out had to slow my DPS because the raises and Medicas were eating away at what I had left. Obviously, this is far from ideal circumstances; speaking more to how bad the party was, but those parties exist. And if you try to save them, even MP Goddess White Mage will run out.

You do realise that this thread explicitly excluded your example, right? Especially since it's new and people are still learning it. Yes, they (and maybe you as well) are bound to die and your MP is bound to dwindle.


This thread is not advocating "DPS, YOU CRUMBY HEALERS!" It's saying to stop spamming when you don't even need to heal. How hard is that to understand?
Edit: if you're not that type of person who mindlessly and carelessly spams heals when people are at 100% HP, then this thread has nothing to do with you.


Edit #2: although I will pose the question "why do some WHM (and fewer diurnal AST) use medica II (or a. helios) at the start of every battle/trial?" For certain ones, like Behemoth in the Labyrinth of the Ancients, I get it because peoples' HP are gradually dwindling thanks to the debuff that's on throughout the entire raid. However, for the most part, most raids, trials, bosses/etc. (normal ones, not savage/ex ones) don't require Medica II/regen at the very start of the battle. In this example, you know the battle, you know it's not needed. Why? Yes, I get that scholar does it but they do it with their barriers, which serves a different purpose.
(I'll add this question to the front page.)

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

Uh, yes? Read the person I quoted who claims White Mage cannot bottom out on MP. Hence my reply to them, specially.

[Elliebird]

In this example, you know the battle, you know it's not needed. Why?
(I'll add this question to the front page.)

That might be your answer, right there.

I usually put Medica II on my group after the tank has smacked the boss a few times, and the reason why is pretty simple. It's to play it safe. If you open up your duty finder and count the number of dungeons, there are quite a few. Those dungeons typically have 2-3 bosses in them, each with their own mechanics. The core of the reason why is that I could play this game all day and still not remember what each of those bosses in each of those dungeons do. That's to say nothing if you add trials, Alliance raids and Fate bosses into the mix.

There are some that I remember and know well, but there are many more that I don't. I'm not new to the game or my class, but for the content I do, having a safety net for fights I'm not very familiar with does no harm. It would be different with harder content, and naturally I would be more careful with it there, but if I'm just knocking out my roulettes then the benefits outweigh any potential drawbacks of using it during a boss fight. Trash pulls are a no-go though!

[Deceptistar]

Same here, I use medica 2 as a safety net.
No matter how much you know the fight, there will always be that tank or DD that will go up and beyond your dmg receiving expectations.
For me its like insurance. You dont go enrolling in auto, health, or life insurance expecting the worst of the worst. But most smart people (or those that can afford it) still get insurance anyway.
Im not saying its great to literally spam it, but pple that mention cure III as an alternate should know more than half the time in dungeons and bosses, that special range dd that stands all the way in siberia.
If its an aoe heal that wont hit everyone, then that is more a waste of mp.

In recent years thers alot more healers that are avoiding aoe heals like the plague in preference of DDing and end up killing at least 1 dd cause they think they BLMs or something...
Something I see more often than before since all these years.
It reminds me of some SCH that put up succor shields (dmg nullify) after the fact everyone gets lobbed in the face. (like imagine a pld shielding himself after he gets pummeled...)

[HyoMinPark]

You do realise that this thread explicitly excluded your example, right? Especially since it's new and people are still learning it. Yes, they (and maybe you as well) are bound to die and your MP is bound to dwindle.

This thread is not advocating "DPS, YOU CRUMBY HEALERS!" It's saying to stop spamming when you don't even need to heal. How hard is that to understand?

Bourne isn't responding to the thread topic specifically; they are just responding to Usho's preconceived notion that WHM's have bottomless MP. Certainly they struggle the least, but they do begin to hurt a bit when things are going south.

I routinely co-heal with Bourne. They know how to heal quite well, and they balance DPSing with it. Let us not be rude to them, even if their reply was not to the opening post itself, but to another in the thread that is mildly off-topic. After all, the entire sect debate I was in last night was a tangent and a half away from the thread topic.

[kikix12]

Aspected benefic, diurnal wins out, because it works out to be 5000 + 12500 or so with shield, but 5000 + 6 tics at 3000ish potency, so 17500 to 23000. And thats if you get the heal of the benefic itself.

You are missing a point. The shield can be put on top of near-full HP. And as it lasts for quite a while, in the case of most bosses, you can be certain that the shields will not be wasted.

If you use diurnal on someone close to full HP, between the regen and the natural HP recovery large part of that regen WILL be wasted on some/most of the party members. If you will avoid healing people that drop low to avoid that regen wasting, you are risking them being knocked out by a single missed mechanic. Outside of tanks, players can get over half of their health bar taken by a single hit from bosses, so DPS and healers should be kept at higher amounts most of the time. Not necessarily 100% HP, but cannot as low as tanks.

Then there's also another thing you seem to be missing, and it's pretty important. Shields negate knockbacks. Any attack whose knockback is tied to damage and can be stopped by Sure Cast and similar (like Ifrits and Ultimas vents) will not knock you back if the damage is negated. They will knock you back if you have regen on. This can make a really big difference in DPS and make mechanics easier to deal with.

And, obviously...most content that actually causes problems is 8 or 24 man, so if you can have both, why not?!

This is why emergency tactics is junk on a SCH; the actual HP healed is very inefficient when its all HP compared to indom or even fey wind.

I hope you don't play scholar. Emergency Tactics turns Succor into a 375 potency Medica (75 potency more than an actual Medica). If you're lucky and crit, Adloquium turns into a 900 potency heal (that did crit), though this isn't something you should depend on. If you need to heal a lot of AoE damage and can't/don't want to use Indomitability at that point then you absolutely should use Emergency Tactics instead of spamming Succor without it. The shields don't stack, so if you ever have to cast Succor more than once, USE Emergency Tactics. Similarly if you need to get tank from low HP really quickly with just MP, Emergency Tactics + Adloquium is a good combo to use after dropping the shield on him.

You may not always be able or willing to use Indomitability and Lustrate/Excognitation. You may have used up the Aetherflow to salvage mistakes, or it may be needed after/during one of those damaging, sequential AoE's like Akh Morn. You may have used Sacred Soil which costs you one Aetherflow down as well. Or you may be keeping the skills for what's to come before your Aetherflow will get off cooldown if you know you will need them then.

And by the way, Fey Wind and Emergency Tactics are not mutually exclusive. If the party is low on HP, using Emergency + Succor and Fey Wind will give the party that safety net of high HP + regeneration to top them off without being wasted, and potentially still leave place for standard Succor to safeguard them against future attacks.

Adlo gets useful since it can be spread, but succor is just garbage overall.

You do know that Succor is the only AoE heal you have on global cooldown as a scholar, right?! And you do know that there are bosses that love AoE, right?! Not always can you make-do with Indomitability and Fey Wind, especially if your party have issues with dodging excessive amount of attacks.

Shields shouldn't be the "end all" to healing, yes. Unless they are burned so fast that they disappear before your next cast will finish anyway just from auto-attacks of the mobs, which usually means that you'll use your Aetherflow heals and Adloquium if you want the tank to live anyway. At that point MP efficiency is secondary since MP won't save you from dying if the tank goes down. But shields are much more useful than you give them credit for. And unlike regeneration, they CAN be used for pulls since past being cast, they don't generate hate.

[Ruf]

You do realise that this thread explicitly excluded your example, right? Especially since it's new and people are still learning it. Yes, they (and maybe you as well) are bound to die and your MP is bound to dwindle.


This thread is not advocating "DPS, YOU CRUMBY HEALERS!" It's saying to stop spamming when you don't even need to heal. How hard is that to understand?
Edit: if you're not that type of person who mindlessly and carelessly spams heals when people are at 100% HP, then this thread has nothing to do with you.


Edit #2: although I will pose the question "why do some WHM (and fewer diurnal AST) use medica II (or a. helios) at the start of every battle/trial?"

Because If you are able to manage your mp with confidence & hopes that players know what to do OR will eventually learn afterward & do better then there will be np.

I could say the same thing to all the healers who insist on using Helios, Medica, Succor, Indom, etc., when I already have Medica II or A. Helios HOTs rolling that will top the group off. (Actually, few things annoy me so viscerally, because I judge my own performance in large part by my %overhealed.) Funnily enough, I find myself using the AOE HOT spells less and less because of the apparently reflexive need to top everyone off, right now!!!1!

This right there? why cant you do both? So from your point of view I should let ppl health under 100% just because they have regen tics (or HOT as you all say...) No just no, that's not acceptable imo because you are underhealing if you dont anticipate, many clearly cant tell what anticipation healing is & no I'm not speaking about boss mechanics, I am speaking about everybody running around into aoes 'getting hurt on purpose...."

There is no Ooooo let HOT do its job when that might end up not being enough because a move hit you more than the % of hp you were left with which was less than 100% IN OTHER WORDS, CURING ON TOP OF x3 REGEN IS NOT A BAD THING,IF ANYTHING LEARN TO MANAGE YOUR MPS, & I give praises to everyone that gave explanations about whm running out of mp & what not speaking about groups & not their self plays.

I dunno if noct is all that great. Aspected benefic, diurnal wins out, because it works out to be 5000 + 12500 or so with shield, but 5000 + 6 tics at 3000ish potency, so 17500 to 23000.

^
Riyah comment I approve & agree with.

100% agree if a regen is ticking let it tick. No reason to heal over someone else’s healing it just wastes your mp and theirs. Plus is super frustrating when you’re the person being healed over.

That comment I disagree with,IT TICKS NO MATTER WHAT & I can nuke & keep ppl hp at 100% too if ppl play properly generally speaking & BE FINE WITH MP.

As a main AST....you are very incorrect about everything you've been saying about AST.

Never do double Diurnal or double Nocturnal in 8 man content. 2 AST in the same party should always be opposite Sects so that you get the benefit of regens AND shields.

Double Diurnal is just plain silly. You are losing out on shields for....absolutely nothing....since double Diurnal ASTs can't even stack regens. Even if you can do the fight like this it is so pointless to do it and you do not gain anything...you simply lose out on benefits like shields.

Oh but I agree, I did not say it was not silly & I did not say that it wasn't letting you shieldless but as I said before.... :

yes shield from nocturnl is good but not necessary.

& :

I believe x2 diurnal is greater, so no it doesn't because I dont want to ask them that, this is where we disagree, if I die & lose my diurnal they still have it, vice versa. I'm done replying, my input & standing point of view got explained already~~~

let me correct the phrase for you as I might of been misunderstood,,, """if I die, then the diurnal healer would be down therefore everyone needing heals would just be left with the Nocturnl shield phalanx Ast which result into ZERO "0" HOT remaining for the time being"""This is a personal choice & in no way because I choose to trust myself & not just blindly go by xiv population astrologian general consensus standing points of view that:

LOL. You don’t have to tell me how to AST, honey. I think I know a bit more about it than you do. Ah, confirmed. This right here tells me you have no idea how to play AST, much less heal.

I'd recommend reading this http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Advice-Is-EvilSo now not only you are telling me I dont know my claims but also you judge my whm & sch while being unaware of anything on them? like I wouldn't know that galvanize pair up well with a whm &

If you have a good co-healer, you don’t need double regens. You don’t even need double regens with a bad co-healer

That is your view & I speak about x4 regen also obviously anything over 2 regen sound too much to handle for you &:

If you don’t want to be misunderstood, write more clearly.

If "YOU" have comprehension issues THAT is your problem & not mine,because what I am explaining is very simple & clear even if I dont do proper paragraphs & punctuation/grammar. Also:

Besides, you must not have experienced content that need both regen and shield to talk like that, so I think that it more or less explain how clueless you are about what you say.

TANK BUSTER !
Oopsie, we're both on Diurnal ! Sorry mate, but at least, my regen was stronger than my co-healer !

& I KNOW THAT INTO SOME FIGHTS THE SHIELD LET YOU BLOCK MECHANICS (& so are you saying tanks are unable to use their defensive abilitys also? So for the sake of a tank that want to be in dps stance I have to use a shield stance for a whole fight? WHILE THEY CAN CHANGE STANCE MIDWAY I CANT), Are you saying that idk my claims ? I dont run some things on some jobs for some reasons & some purposes & so on so on(ill play a different class if I dont want something/somewhere), 70 everywhere here & again

This is a personal choice

Which brings back my own claim on the other thread of the link I brought up about mentors

I do agree to that comment tho: Not every "Crown" knows everything I am wrong at times too, just like everyone, but I refuse to not communicate in fear of getting feedbacks

But as I said in this same post & I will réeiterate it: I choose to trust myself & not just blindly go by xiv population astrologian general consensus standing points. Matter of fact aka: Its bad to listen to others at times & while I disagree with players ignoring mentors explanations & bashing at them I can also understand a little bit why some do it.On that note I will even type that into the other thread.

[HyoMinPark]

So from your point of view I should let ppl health under 100% just because they have regen tics (or HOT as you all say...) No just no, that's not acceptable imo because you are underhealing if you dont anticipate, many clearly cant tell what anticipation healing is & no I'm not speaking about boss mechanics, I am speaking about everybody running around into aoes 'getting hurt on purpose...."

You do realize that people don’t have to be at 100% health 100% of the time, yes? They only need Max HP if there is a heavy hit coming that will kill them...which this game has very little of outside of the highest of high-end content (and even in things like God Kefka, you do not need 100% HP 100% of the time—it’s perfectly acceptable to let HoTs (which means “heals over time”) tick up from 75% to 100%. Or 50% to 85%. To have HoTs ticking on people that are at 100% HP is a waste of the ticks. I don’t know how many other ways to spell that out for you.

There is no Ooooo let HOT do its job when that might end up not being enough because a move hit you more than the % of hp you were left with which was less than 100% IN OTHER WORDS, CURING ON TOP OF x3 REGEN IS NOT A BAD THING,IF ANYTHING LEARN TO MANAGE YOUR MPS, & I give praises to everyone that gave explanations about whm running out of mp & what not speaking about groups & not their self plays.

It absolutely is a bad thing. When you heal people that are already at 100%, or whom are at 80% and have 30 seconds of regen ticks on them that will inevitably heal them up to 100%, you are wasting your MP, your GCD, and your time on overhealing them. You do understand the concept of “overhealing”, yes? Any heal that hits a person that has max health is a complete and utter waste. There is no “it’s okay” about it. Sorry not sorry, but you are incredibly wrong with this statement.

That comment I disagree with,IT TICKS NO MATTER WHAT & I can nuke & keep ppl hp at 100% too if ppl play properly generally speaking & BE FINE WITH MP.

There’s no need to nuke people up to 100% if the HoTs will get them there. You’re wasting the regen ticks, be them your own or your co-healer’s.

So now not only you are telling me I dont know my claims but also you judge my whm & sch while being unaware of anything on them? like idk that galvanize pair up well with a whm

You don’t know what you’re talking about since you think double Diurnal is a good way to play AST.

4x regens

You NEVER need 4 regens on a single target. EVER.

If "YOU" have comprehension issues THAT is your problem & not mine,because what I am explaining is very simple & clear even if I dont do proper paragraphs & punctuation/grammar. Also:

The only one with issues in this thread is you, my friend. The ASTs talking to you in this thread have a lot more experience than you do on the job. Miste has cleared Savage on AST; I have raided Savage on AST, and have played the job for 2 years. Have you cleared Savage on AST? Have you cleared it effectively? Probably not, because you wouldn’t get very far in it with your playstyle and your inability to adapt and work with your co-healer.

Your “personal choice” is bad play. Stop spreading it around like it’s the correct way to play the job, because that is what you’re doing with your posts in this thread, as well as this:

IN OTHER WORDS, CURING ON TOP OF x3 REGEN IS NOT A BAD THING,IF ANYTHING LEARN TO MANAGE YOUR MPS

The “xiv population astrologian general consensus” is a lot more correct on how to play the job than you are. Get over yourself, dude.

[F_Maximillian]

I love threads like these, it really brings out people that know how the game works vs those who will defend misguided feelycrafting until they're blue in the face. Healing has worked the same in this game since the game started regardless of how you feel about it, though this doesn't just apply to healers either.

No matter how a role functioned in another game you've played it does not matter whatsoever in this game. The OP is basically spot on with the overuse of heals and this strange "everyone must be topped off" mentality that has come from other games (FFXI is actually a different game by the way) only hurts your mp pool and your team's damage output/healing synergy.

I think there's a key thing that most people forget and that's bosses are also bound by the same GCD we are. There won't be a string of attacks that goes out before you have the chance to heal. If you look at the timeline for any bosses moves they're always spaced at least 3 seconds apart. If you know the fight and don't stand there wondering if you should heal for 10 seconds you will almost never be caught off guard because people aren't 100% hp all the time.

This right there? why cant you do both? So from your point of view I should let ppl health under 100% just because they have regen tics (or HOT as you all say...) No just no, that's not acceptable imo because you are underhealing if you dont anticipate, many clearly cant tell what anticipation healing is & no I'm not speaking about boss mechanics, I am speaking about everybody running around into aoes 'getting hurt on purpose...."

There is no Ooooo let HOT do its job when that might end up not being enough because a move hit you more than the % of hp you were left with which was less than 100% IN OTHER WORDS, CURING ON TOP OF x3 REGEN IS NOT A BAD THING,IF ANYTHING LEARN TO MANAGE YOUR MPS, & I give praises to everyone that gave explanations about whm running out of mp & what not speaking about groups & not their self plays.

Also:
& I KNOW THAT INTO SOME FIGHTS THE SHIELD LET YOU BLOCK MECHANICS, Are you saying that idk my claims ? For one let me tell you that I dont run something on some jobs for some reasons & purpose & so on so on, 70 everywhere here & again Which brings back my own claim on the other thread of the link I brought up about mentors But as I said in this same post & I will réeiterate it: I choose to trust myself & not just blindly go by xiv population astrologian general consensus standing points. Matter of fact aka: Its bad to listen to others at times & while I disagree with players ignoring mentors explanations & bashing at them I can also understand a little bit why some do it.On that not I will even type that into the other thread.

Yes, you should not keep people topped off 100% of the time when regen ticks will get them to 100%, especially when no damage is coming out that will require them to be topped off before regen will do it for you. That's just a waste of mp and needless overhealing no matter how you feel about it. If you truly feel that people need to be 100% health all the time that means you should focus more on learning the fights and when people actually do need to be topped off. HoTs are flat out the most efficient form of healing no matter how much you aren't comfortable with that fact.

As for your last point, there's no need to blindly go by anything. There's tons of examples and data to back up most claims that are essentially common knowledge by now. Just because it goes against your feelycrafting doesn't make it wrong and being open to advice and input from others is key to improving as a player. People who plug their ears and pretend to think they know best are often the subjects of the tales from duty finder stories..