Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess

[HyperiusUltima]

As much as I like it, it’s seriously causing issues with expanding the roster and has been since the NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH Meta baby in HW. There’s only like 2 other jobs that are capable of replacing MCH here and there, but the fact that Disembowel gives a 600+ rDPS increase with 2 Ranged is absurd.

If anything, this issue needs to be rectified in the next big balance patch somehow, considering we’re going down the same path Heavensward went when it came to balancing; just a lot better than it used to be.

I have a suggestion that’s open for criticism since I want to think this would balance a bit better and expand the amount of jobs that the meta can have:

DRG
- Disembowel Piercing Down Removed.
- Heavy Thrust 5% -> 10%

MCH
- 5% Damage increase.

SAM
- Increase potency even further to be competitive with Buff Meta.

RDM
- Consider buffing potencies to make it competitive with the other casters outside of progression.

[Duskane]

Heavy thrust is 10% instead of messing with classes that have good team composition how about fix other classes to have better synergy with others

[Kitfox]

Heavy thrust is 10% instead of messing with classes that have good team composition how about fix other classes to have better synergy with others

How about we have no direct synergy between jobs so everybody can play with everyone? Why enforce arbitary party setups because of flat 100% uptime weapon type debuffs? They're not interesting, only limiting.

[EllieShadeflare]

Heavy thrust is 10% instead of messing with classes that have good team composition how about fix other classes to have better synergy with others

The first step is to get rid of the "synergy" that encourages a mono build. Seriously, look ANYWHERE and you'll find that most statics shoe in Dragoons and Bard/Machinists, because the latter provide important support tools for the rest of the party and bring the former to not make the latter feel absolutely pathetic.

If you need another class to not feel terrible at damage, then it's a problem on SE's part for underpowering Bards and Machinists and a problem that this synergy is so specific.

Hell, I'll make things easier:

>Disembowel's Piercing Debuff Removed

>Potency of all Bard and Machinist skills increased by about 5-10% to compensate.

Now we can focus on making actual synergy happen.

[Kitfox]

>Potency of all Bard and Machinist skills increased by about 5-10% to compensate.

You need to buff DRG if Disembowel is removed, not BRD/MCH.

[GunksFoy]

You need to buff DRG if Disembowel is removed, not BRD/MCH.

This also. Would require a pretty huge buff since this is the biggest way a Dragoon contributes to the party.

[EllieShadeflare]

a

You need to buff DRG if Disembowel is removed, not BRD/MCH.

Bard and Machinist are the classes who lose things if Disembowel is removed, not Dragoon. If anything, the 5% provided by the buff doesn't really need to go back into the Dragoon (since the power of Disembowel is that it boosts you AND the Bard and probably a Machinist if you wanna go full meta), except maybe boosting Heavy Thrust further or something.

Seriously, look on FFLogs. I can almost guarantee you that most of the best damaging Bards and Machinists have a Dragoon providing Disembowel, and the fastest groups have a Dragoon and Bard and/or Machinist for this very reason.

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

Heck, if you're so desperate to have a buff from Disembowel, just make it a universal buff so other classes other than Machinists and Bards benefit. Just not something that encourages a monobuild.

[Kitfox]

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

Here you go.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

If I may:

DRG has its own utility in the form of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight, but it is mostly in the meta because of the bonus it can give BRD/MCH through piercing. Disembowel alone earns roughly ~300 rDPS contribution for 1 ranged, ~600 rDPS if you run both. The combination of Disembowel with Litany and Dragon Sight make DRG almost beat out the rDPS contribution larger rBuffs give (e.g., Trick Attack) if you’re running with just one physical ranged; and, if you’re running double physical ranged, DRG’s combined utility craps all over Trick Attack.

While Litany and Dragon Sight are still great buffs, Dragon Sight accounts for ~1% of a total DPS increase on its target, and Litany does not scale as well as Trick Attack does in terms of contribution—mostly because TA is a straight damage increase and has a shorter recast, where as Litany is critical hit rate up (so contribution is reliant on RNG for crits) and is on a fairly long timer. Without the 300~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel, DRG can easily be subbed out for MNK, since Brotherhood is really good for all physical comps, affects straight-up damage like TA does, and is on a shorter timer (lines up great with WAR’s Inner Release, so they’re happy, and Litany is worthless to a WAR now, because they will never not be in IR when Litany is up, and IR = auto Crit Direct Hits).

So there would have to be something added to DRG to make it competitive with the other melee—either they reduce the cooldown on Litany to allow it more uses in a given fight (and, by extension, more rDPS contribution), or they buff DRG’s personal damage to be a bit more selfish with a hint of utility. As it stands right now, their personal damage is not enough to offset the 300~600 rDPS contribution they would lose if piercing were removed—and they would be losing 5% of their personal damage as well, since all their damage is piercing damage.


As for BRD/MCH, I think they may have to be tweaked slightly. Because BRD, as it stands now, is behind in personal damage compared to the other DPS, but it can at least be offset by the massive amounts of rDPS contribution and utility that they offer—though I would personally like to see at least a tiny tweak, maybe ~2%, so that I don’t feel so weak in terms of personal damage like I do currently without a DRG (no DRG = me sad BRD)...but I can understand why they may not want to do that (even though it does suck). MCH, on the other hand, only has Hypercharge (which is not nearly as good as Trick Attack) and Dismantle (which groups can live without), so they would have to have some sort of buff to compensate because they don’t offer enough rDPS contribution like BRD does to be competitive—BRD has everything MCH can offer, and BRD does it better.

Even now, with piercing in the game, MCH gets subbed out for BLM or SMN. Clunky gameplay aside, it will need some TLC if piercing is actually removed to not make it deader than it already is.

[Wayfinder3]

a

Bard and Machinist are the classes who lose things if Disembowel is removed, not Dragoon. If anything, the 5% provided by the buff doesn't really need to go back into the Dragoon (since the power of Disembowel is that it boosts you AND the Bard and probably a Machinist if you wanna go full meta), except maybe boosting Heavy Thrust further or something.

You are very much incorrect on that assumption. If Disembowel is removed
Dragoon lose 300 min to 600 Max raid dps
Bard loses 300 Pdps but Still Keeps it's overwhelming amount of utility
Machnist loses 300 pdps and since it's pdps matters more to it than it's utility to keep it competitive with bard. This job will probbaly fall into obscurity however, it doesn't lose any of it's utility either

DRG is the job that loses in this situation as disembowel's gain should be attributed to it.