My suggestion for how to fix the current "Synergy Stacking" meta.

[Remyogic]

You can't really "fix" a meta, because it is not a hard-set state of the game. It is a fluid state of the game created by the players based on what they consider the most viable at the time. As soon as SE changes how classes work or any other "meta-change" updates; a new meta will form and people will be complaining about being left out of that meta. The only way to not have a meta is to make every class EXACTLY the same, at which point, why have classes at all?

Not saying any of your ideas are bad, just pointing out there is a lot of time and thought going in to "fixing" something that is just going to re-manifest itself infinitely.

[Tex_Mex]

I posted a possible solution to this problem in the thread "Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess," since this is virtually the same topic. Go check it out if you are interested.

[Nominous]

You can't really "fix" a meta, because it is not a hard-set state of the game. It is a fluid state of the game created by the players based on what they consider the most viable at the time. As soon as SE changes how classes work or any other "meta-change" updates; a new meta will form and people will be complaining about being left out of that meta. The only way to not have a meta is to make every class EXACTLY the same, at which point, why have classes at all?

Not saying any of your ideas are bad, just pointing out there is a lot of time and thought going in to "fixing" something that is just going to re-manifest itself infinitely.

Not entirely true that it'd just re-manifest itself. It comes down to smart implementation. I mean, 2.x only really had TA, and Disembowel. Even still, most Jobs people felt to have an identity then. So I'm confused why people are so afraid of losing these things that weren't integral to the flavor of the Job before. Especially when they could be replaced with abilities that are more meaningful, gameplay wise.

I mained DRG coming up to 4.0, and even played a little of 4.0 with it. I love the Job. I never once felt like Battle Litany was why I loved the Job. Nor was it Disembowel. I don't get the love for these things, they don't bring flavor to the Job, at all. That'd be like playing MNK for Brotherhood when the Job is more interesting because of the GL effect.

[Tsubaki75]

There will always be something that is more optimal regardless of what you do, there are several metas in this game be it progression or otherwise. The issue is that the speed kill meta you are referring to is taken as a be all end all by players that don't understand what it's for. This content can and has been beaten by non meta groups with no issues and most of the ppl complaining don't play optimally enough to even really benefit from the meta comp.

[Nominous]

There will always be something that is more optimal regardless of what you do, there are several metas in this game be it progression or otherwise. The issue is that the speed kill meta you are referring to is taken as a be all end all by players that don't understand what it's for. This content can and has been beaten by non meta groups with no issues and most of the ppl complaining don't play optimally enough to even really benefit from the meta comp.

Nobody discussing this is saying that it's the most devastating thing ever. It should go without saying that all of these discussions take place because, no matter how small the margin, people want the game to be better and improve where it can. It... SHOULD go without saying. But the more common notion, is that campaigning for a better game is stupid because, "Lol Ultimate is so ez any Job can clear lololol". It's not a bad thing to care about wanting better, even if it's a slight improvement that you're wanting.

Listen, I get that speed-killing isn't taking place within the entire community at large. But the visibility of it, and the popularity of a certain website has changed how (some) people approach the game, and the perception of balance. Fact is, Job changes are largely based on community feedback. That feedback is based on the perception of balance in this game, and their experiences. That is shaped by things like that website, and the visibility it gives of the most popular and effective compositions, and the upper limit of individual Jobs. It doesn't really matter how many people take advantage of a strong tactic, it just matters that it exists, and can be seen. And to be frank, I never understood the argument that, "Not many people speed-kill anyway." As if that's supposed to help the argument? So if only a couple people could take advantage of Ungarmax, it doesn't really matter? Only a couple people can really pull off a speedhack, so that's not a problem? Okay.

Again, it's not a crime to care about something. You pay for this product at the end of the day, too. It's cool if you don't care about what you're getting for your money. I choose to, so just like the other people who want better, I'll keep talking about it.

[Myon88]

The only problem with 'synergy stacking' is the perception of the players who think it defines the whole the game. The solution to that is to correct your perceptions instead of trying to fix what ain't broke.

The reality is that this game has a wide variety of content and is balanced holistically with that in mind. The optimal strategy for progression isn't necessarily the same as the one for speed, even light party and open world content have their own favoured jobs. In this context you can see that the game is actually pretty balanced with a niche for almost every job, I think it's folly to take something only 0.001% of the playerbase does seriously and try to shoehorn the entire game around that.

I think that the sooner people make their peace with that, the happier they will be because it's clear to me the game isn't going in that direction anyway. If you recall Yoshi-P's comments on why RDM's damage is fine, or why SMN's physick isn't on the level of vercure, you can see that things like job identity, and the big picture are a lot more important to them than narrow balance for balance's sake.

Personally as someone who grew up with fighting games and RTSes, I don't understand why some speed-oriented players are so insistent on having SE balance the game for them. If you operate on the cutting edge, your job is basically to find ways to break the game to your advantage, and you should expect to have to find and have to use all kinds of outlier strategies. When it comes down to it, this isn't really a performance oriented game either, even the hardest content it offers is structured around execution instead of raw numbers. Speedrunning is basically a community organized alternative activity that occurs outside the bounds of normal play, there is no obligation for them to balance around it. I mean, imagine if the whole community suddenly decided that open-world footraces was the new big thing, and people started clamouring for everyone to get the same level of mobility as dragoons and ninjas. Don't you think that would be a bit silly?

[Seraphor]

Indeed, any class can clear any content, and any party composition (excluding those with multiples of the same class in some cases) can too.
What that says to me is that "meta" is essentially "easy mode".
If people would focus to playing their chosen job well rather than choosing the job that is easier to play or gives them bigger numbers, then maybe the meta wouldn't be a thing.

Ultimately though it comes down to trusting in the ability of other players, and that's why we have a meta, because easier jobs = greater chance the person playing it is competent. We're all just too cynical and inpatient.

[Nominous]

Don't you think that would be a bit silly?

I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that they literally already do balance based on those things you're describing as folly to balance around. Like I said, it's not the amount of people that take advantage of it that matters, it's the visibility and perception that does. You can't fix the latter, which is why they do make changes to Jobs in the first place, aside from general QoL adjustments.

Why do you think Disembowel got nerfed, and NO other resistances got nerfed coming into 4.0? Because of Job identity? No. Because of the double-ranged meta in 3.4. And just like now, any Job could clear anything just fine. It's a tired argument, because just like then, it is incredibly strong. For that matter, PLD could clear any content in 3.x too, but people still complained about not being in the Meta, and being mostly ignored for changes in 3.x and where do we see PLD now? You think that's a coincidence? It's the community's feedback, which is usually based on the upper limit of a Job's performance, and group strengths. So you say the community's perception is at fault, not the game? The community's thoughts (including about the meta), and game balance are directly tied to one another, and we have tons of evidence of that.

And since you bring up fighting games, me too. And frankly, it's not a 1:1 comparison. Fighting game 'meta' has far more variables, and can be overcome by even more variables. Good match-ups, match-up knowledge, player matchups and knowledge, and just generally being better with your character. In XIV, you can't really overcome a "Top Tier", because they factually are just stronger, or as a fact, just offer more to the party. Some of it comes down to what is being emphasized as important, too, which is partly the community's issue. Part of the onus is on the developer there to emphasize what's important in their own game too though, since of course they're the ones creating it. Right now, they've emphasized party synergy elements. 3/4th of the present Jobs have something significant to offer the party, with about 7 of those (almost half the existing roster) receiving these elements in 4.0. They're pushing this aspect of the game hard, while leaving some Jobs untouched in hopes of creating diversity, but instead, those Jobs are just viewed as lacking, and rightly so. They're in the minority (only about 3 of 15 Jobs).

Now, it's not that you need to overcome the "Meta". You don't. But it's important that if one exists, it's one that is based more around auxiliary elements (like cross role) than it is anything else.

[Myon88]

It's certainly true that they do actively tune PvE output, it is a big part of the game after all, and the impression of fairness is important if you want to maintain good relations with your playerbase. However, where perception comes into play is the fact that when it comes to DPS differentials, the tolerances that players expect are invariably an order of magnitude tighter than the target SE themselves aims for.

The competitive nature of speedrunning and the players that take part in it mean that any difference no matter how small gets magnified by hyperbole and the all-or-nothing nature of relative performance. As long as something is measurably better, it will be seized upon as the new hotness and people will find another set of jobs to complain about. You just can't win with these people.

There's also the matter I brought up of there being many disparate and valid avenues of battle content in the game. Selfish jobs like BLM and SAM already do disproportionately well in small group content where there's less opportunity to exploit the compounding effect of party buffs (not to mention less people to buff). You can say such content isn't as important as savage or ultimate, but if that was the case, why would they repeatedly nerf things like SMN's painflare when savage has no meaningful aoe? Things like that make me suspect they take a more holistic view of job balance.

So if you ask me, how this pertains to balance w.r.t the raid composition metagame is that optimal compositions should be treated as emergent phenomena, not the baseline for comparison. Different toolkits flourish in different niches in this game, jobs that excel at aoe and personal contribution excel in dungeons, RDM is a solo wizard when it comes to things like PotD - so I don't see why it is so offensive to people that jobs with synergistic buffs excel in an environment that lets you compound them. The fundamental challenge of raids is simply to clear them, and any auxiliary conditions you attach to that outcome are self-made. Remember that the etymology of the word 'metagame' is literally the game within the game. When you operate on the fringes of the playerbase and are making up your own rules, you have to be prepared to accept some concessions, it comes with the territory.

[Nominous]

"so I don't see why it is so offensive to people that jobs with synergistic buffs excel in an environment that lets you compound them."

I can't speak for everyone, but I have to assume that it's because the content that the crowd views as largely important (that they partake in) is the content that they feel disparity in, or care about their performance in. Nobody's bringing up dungeon, Deep Dungeon, Eureka, or other content balance. Largely because it's viewed as unimportant to the measure of a player's skill, or a Job's upper limit of output. In other words, the "Standard" and "Not-Casual" content (not ONLY) to judge Job capabilities on, is Savage and Ultimate. Of course, like you said, that butts heads with the combat developers in some sense, since they seem to internally balance for the whole of the game, and only balance reactionary to feedback to keep people happy.

I think the people who don't view it as problematic are probably the people who either don't care about balance at all, play all Jobs more or less equally, have never had to deal with PF/Recruiting for a Static, or are playing the Jobs that don't experience any disparity. That's a fine place to find yourself, and I value their opinion. I just don't think that any of the synergy in the game right now, sans Brotherhood and Dragon Sight, have any interesting gameplay applications, and only really exist to give a reason to bring a specific Job to the party over another. And if you can't offer interesting synergy to every Job, or spread it roughly equally amongst them, or balance it appropriately, then you shouldn't have it in the game at all, or at least try to keep it extremely niche and limited.