[Feast Feedback] Improving The Current Reward Structure And Systems

[Astryoneus]

Hello people, I’m making this thread in an attempt to give constructive criticism and feedback to the player base and especially the development team about the lacking state of reward structure in PvP, more specifically the Feast but couple systems also affect Frontlines. The goal is to mainly improve the experience (in terms of rewards) and incentives in lower ranks of play, not the Top 100 even though I do have a couple suggestions and carrots for us “hardcore PvPers” as well. Each segment has concise bullet points followed by my expanded thoughts, should you want to just get the main points.

The Almost Non-Existent Rewards Outside of Top 100

• Giving players more goals and rewards to aim for, even if the.y can't reach Top 100 or don't play Feast at all.
• Maximum Wolf Mark amount should be increased, and more expensive rewards added

This is one of the biggest issues competitive PvP has, also in casual PvP. The collars you get at the end of each Season are a good start, but they should be expanded on so much more. The usual stuff, mounts and minions, more weapon designs and so on. Same with Wolf Marks, continue the trend with 4.3. The point is to give people more currency sinks and things you can get and aim for even if they can’t get to Top 100 which only the minority will anyway.

Increasing Wolf Collars Reward Amounts

• Currently the only reward you get is a glamour weapon every two Seasons (3-5 months) if you don't place in Top 100/10.
• The incentive is therefore extremely low for anyone starting out.
• Although somewhat subjective, the current Collar rewards are somewhat undesireable. Introducing more rewards and adding a bit more flair to the pool would be ideal.
• Increasing the Collar amounts so everyone above Gold gets one weapon a Season would ensure even the average players would get something for their efforts.

At least double. In the current system, you get a number of Collars based on where you placed at the end of the Season. The amounts are 7/6/5/4/3 respectively for each of the tiers from Diamond down to Bronze.

You will not get a weapon unless you reach Top 10, which rewards you 10 Collars, or play for two entire Seasons. That means you get one white grade weapon every 3-5 months depending on how long the Seasons last, and the amount of time and effort you have to put in isn’t small either. This is crazy. How does this motivate or incentivise anyone to actively participate, or participate at all, as a newcomer or an (below or above) average player?

The Collar amounts should at the very minimum be brought up to 15/12/10/8/6, that way anyone above Gold (which is quite easy to reach) will get one weapon each Season and Diamond players will be rewarded with two for two Seasons. More incentive for the larger majority, and extra cherry for the top percent and anyone wanting to push up to that level. With this change, I’d also want to see Top 10 changed from 10 Collars, ideas later on.

Making PvP Gear Matter

• Giving PvP gear more importance through competitive ILVL would encourage PvErs to cross over to PvP, and vice versa.
• Possibly (hopefully) allowing players who do well in PvP to earn higher ILVL gear to compensate their efforts.
• This could be done through either a weekly currency or different ILVL gear sets behind each tier, the better it is the higher you are.
• Keeping the gear competitive but not affecting raid gear progression is key to keep everyone happy.

At this current point in time, PvP gear has no value other than glamour. Why? Stormblood changed gear to not affect anything in PvP so how come there was a need to remove any use the gear had outside of glamour? I think this "double nerf" was a mistake.

First of all, this might seem insignificant to many, but why is the gear white? The psychology behind (MMO)RPGs is that the higher the rarity, the more value it automatically has even if people don’t consciously think about that. Why not give it that extra “importance”? More importantly though, give the gear ilvl and stats comparable to something like whatever the current dungeon gear is at. This would give people one more reason to participate in both “sides”; PvErs could be gearing their alts with it, PvP-only or heavy players would stay at least somewhat competitive in terms of gear. incentivising participation, without making it mandatory, in both PvE and PvP would be healthy in my opinion because you get a more varied experience.

I’d like to take that previous train of thought a bit further. Why not reward players who do well in PvP with tomestone level gear? Execution for this could be difficult, but couple ideas:

• The higher you climb, the better gear you can purchase with the maximum ilvl being around the current tomestone ilvl or 5 below.
• Weekly currency or reward token you get once a week and you can spend it on suggested ilvl gear.
• - Credit to Avarence for inspiring that weekly currency idea.

I do realise this has a couple problems:

• Raiders could have an issue with such PvP gear affecting their gear progression when a new tier drops. I don’t personally think that’s an issue because crafted gear still exists as well as again, participation in both PvP and PvE is positive in my eyes.
• How do you determine “how well” someone does in PvP to allow them to purchase the best gear. It could go by tier with Diamond players having access to the best items. But I’m not sure if that would be the best way to do it.
• Seasons still haven’t found a sort of fixed patch cycle they run, so ilvl could jump up from when the Season started to when it ends, so determining the gear ilvl could be difficult. Solution could be scaling gear pieces, depending on your rank? I really don’t have an answer for this one.

Anyway, point being the gear should have more use and matter more. If we would get something similar to what I have suggested above, I think tomestone rewards should also be either removed or lessened because you already get sufficient gear from PvP’s own rewards and currencies.

PvP Rank Prestige System

• PvP Rank in it's current state is irrelevant, this change would make it relevant again.
• Goal is to reward and incentivise active participation as well as dedicated players.
• This would be a relatively easy system to add that would reward anyone participating in PvP, whether you are a casual Frontliner or hardcore Feaster.

Many games already have this, we don’t need to reinvent the wheel here because it works. Currently the PvP rank has no meaning whatsoever aside from the couple titles you get along the way when you rank it up. I’d like to see it have meaning again. Basically how this would work is, once you have reached “maximum rank” (currently 50) you would start gaining prestige levels by earning experience. After capping the amount needed you would level up, the bar would reset and you would go at it again. The goal is to give people a sense of progression, that frankly is completely missing after the changes in Stormblood, to everyone regardless if you’re a casual Frontlines player or a hardcore Top 10 Feast boyo. Also active play rewards which are also missing.

Rewards would be things such as minions, mounts, titles, glamour pieces, all the usual stuff. You don’t need something for each level, but let’s say something like levels 1/2/3/4/5/8/10/15/20/30 would have rewards tied to them to give you an idea.

This in my opinion would be a really easy and important thing to add into the game without too much hassle, aside from of course creating “unique” rewards for the system of course.

“Slow” And/Or Infrequent Rewards

• Giving players the tier rewards throughout the Season would again motivate players throughout the Season with milestones, not only at the end.
• Ideally each Season would also have small extra things with each tier milestone, unique to that Season.
• Would fix the issue of players not receiving any tier achievement and title under the one they finished at the end of the Season.

Simply put, currently you do not get any rewards or milestones until the Seasons’ end if you’ve played any significant amount of time. I think rewards such as tier achievements and their respective titles should be rewarded the moment you reach said tier and not at the end. While we’re on the subject, why on Earth do we not also receive the tier achievements below the tier we finish at?

Similarly, each tier milestone could and probably should have a reward the same way we had accessories in Heavenward Seasons. These would also be given out upon reaching said tier. Collars could be the at the end of Season reward/currency you get. Again, the goal is to incentivise active participation by making players feel like they’re earning something throughout their time and effort put into Feast and not just at the end.

More Incentives For Top 100 And Above

• The top level rewards could also use some tuning, most importantly Top 10.
• Just the extra collars are not that big of an incentive for the extra push, offering something unique along with them would be preferable such as glowing versions of already existing weapons.
• Status icon similar to Mentor Crown(s) would be an amazing thing for Top 100/10/1.
• Exclusive items and features motivate people to get better, and I think that is extremely positive for the game.

As much as I want to improve the average player experience first and foremost because it is extremely important for the health of PvP, I think the top level rewards could also use some work or additions. Because let’s face it, we all want to show off and boast with our swag.

So, a couple suggestions:

• Not only would the Top 100 and above get their current rewards, you would also get a status symbol you can set in front of your name similar to the Mentor Crown(s) for players to show off their achievements in PvP. Example: Top 100 gets a sword, Top 10 gets two crossed swords, Top 1 gets three swords with one going through the cross.
• Like I mentioned before, the current Top 10 reward of 10 Collars should be removed and replaced with something a bit more appealing such as glowing versions of the weapons we can currently buy with the Collars. I think this would appeal to a lot more people and motivate people to push up to get them.

I know what some of you might be thinking: not more exclusive stuff for the top 0.1%. But I say, exclusivity drives excellence. I would want to have “seemingly unattainable” goals in the game for players motivated enough to strive for and better themselves in the process. I’m all for making (timed or not) exclusive items and features (such as the icon) for the sake of them motivating players to be better, not just for the sake of making exclusive things for myself or fellow dedicated PvPers.

That’s about it friendos. Bottom line is: I and many, many others feel like the incentives and rewards for the average PvP player (or really anyone outside of Top 100) are near non-existent and I would really love to see that aspect improved. I really think just about everything I talked about would be healthy for the PvP scene in this game.
I’m happy if you made it this far with my hopefully coherent thoughts, suggestions and criticism. I hope this will spark healthy and constructive conversation and this whole thread give the dev team some ideas as to where to take the PvP next.

Thank you for reading.

[Crit]

u rite af friendo

have a fat +1


and a kitty

[Mantrus]

This is a good line of thinking and a good way to start the conversation on this topic. I have a few notes to build upon the idea.

Wolf Marks:
I don't think just adding more of the same will improve the situation. I think the type of reward needs to be reconsidered for Marks; with equipment rewards, the Marks just get you the glamour that you want and then it's useless. I think Marks need a disposable or "more is better" reward instead of equipment. Marks already kinda have that with GC Seals and Desynthesis, but I think an official income usage (or at least a noncumbersome way to transfer to GC Seals without multiple trips back and forth) would be better.

ilevel on PvP gear:
This is viable, but I think the ilevel must be the same as non-limited gear (crafted) instead of better or slightly lower than tome gear. If PvP gear is anything better, then an optimal path to gearing up without raids would be to grind PvP along with weekly tomes. I don't think that's acceptable for PvE players.

Prestige:
We basically already have this with titles from amount of games. Even if prestige would be better with more discrete achievements vs continuous number of games, it's basically the same system with a different name. Don't get me wrong, I'm for a system like this vs achievements we currently have, but the existence of a similar system begs the questions from SE's perspective: 1) how is this system different from currently existing ones, 2) is there a demand for these differences, and 3) is the effort to make this system worth the differences? And the problem now may not be the achievement system itself but rather the rewards of just titles for thousands of games played.

Top 100+ rewards:
Personally I would love better rewards for higher ranks but I'm biased. Objectively, is there a need to improve rewards for higher ranks? Platinum+ matches are already fairly active, and a decent number of top 30 players queue despite the bad rewards because they enjoy the mode or want the ranks for the intrinsic value. Of course activity can always be improved, but the activity of higher matches is in much better condition than lower ratings, and SE only has so many resources they care to devote to PvP.

Also something to keep in mind for most of these rewards is that they have to incentivize winning, or we will be back in the PvE experience in Shatter situation where people just AFK.

Overall I think we need to state better WHY we need or should have these systems instead of just drafting the execution out. And just in case, fixing currently broken systems isn't a reason; for example, battle Leves suck ass, but they don't need to change since no one cares about them and the need is filled by fates and quests instead. Like I said, this is a good topic starter and the ideas are there. But if we want to improve the inevitably infinitely small chance the English PvP community gets SE's attention, then we need to address the demand and gains from their perspective.

[Astryoneus]

I do not think, as long as said PvP gear is a couple notches below tome gear, that anyone has any valid criticism for the gear to have some very slight effect on gear progression for new raid tiers. Like I mentioned in the post, crafted gear exists for those who are truly hardcore for progression and that is what you will go for 100%. If you're going at the raid on your own pace as a midcore raider, you're already "casual" enough to not truly care about min-maxing your gear for progression. Therefore PvP gear being a slight sidegrade on the way can't be that big of a deal.

The suggested Prestige system is better and different in one important way, like stated in the post: it gives a sense of progression that is otherwise completely lacking in the current PvP system. You don't level up, you don't gain power from upgrading your gear, nothing changes ever aside from the couple tuning knobs known as additional abilities and traits. That is I think something very important for MMORPGs. The differences and the posts' suggested systems are in my eyes worth it for SE because:

Almost all of them are meant to give players more incentives to actively participate in PvP, have more reasons to do so and get more attached to that side of the game. Therefore spending more time in the game in it's entirety and becoming even more "loyal" players and more importantly from a business standpoint, customers. And that is exactly why we need and should have these systems or something along these lines.

As for the Top 100 rewards: this is no priority list really, but I do mention and highlight that most of this is meant to fix participation incentives for lower ratings specifically first and foremost. However giving a more complete overview on multiple things that could be improved on felt to me like an important thing to do. I agree everything else should be implemented before anything extra for Top 100. My goal is to give more of a longer and complete pipeline of things that could be worked on, some prioritised more than others.

[Lee0v0xoxo]

Tho I would kinda agree with everything you say, but for the top 100 rewards it should be re-obtainable items by a stand point. Its kinda cool to have exclusive items everyone wants em, which motivates us to do better but seeing something you really like but can never obtain just is so annoying it haunts you. So I started playing this season played alot this season aswell in total about 700+ feast matches made it to plat and got kicked out of it. By something It felt like I was tackling a wall that I couldnt climb for some reason, not to mention that some people have multiple characters at the 100th ladder that you have to beat so you can get to place. Ive seen many good players securing more then one spots in the ladder, which kinda bugs you. Since most people that do good in pvp are people who have gotten into pvp earlier. I sound like im crying, but I played wow arenas and getting gladiator is something you just fantasies about same scenario here.

[Lee0v0xoxo]

It seems as the rewards will always vary from each season like sometimes they decide to do mount and sometimes they do armor, i have 5 wolf collar which I cant use this season for anything I thought I could obtain the gear but it seems as that is also exclusive lost item.

[sycko]

I support this post. Getting more people to play feast would go a long way to solve many of the issues in higher tier play.

[BloodRubyXII]

Tbf upvoted this before I even fully read it, but now I have, they could do with spending less time on balancing right now and more time on incentivizing (SP?) Feast. The game mode has so much more potential and it's obvious they care, but their energies rarely go in the right direction. A non-top 100 player gains practically nothing out of playing Feast. Whilst top 100 in your first season is very attainable, many people new to pvp won't think like that and probably won't get it; and they have nothing else to play for since they get a pitiful amount of collars, a title and that's uh.... pretty much it. Hook em up with some progressive glams and make PvP rank great again.

[Invalid_Name]

I've had a similar idea to your tomestone gear suggestion but never posted it. Low expectations, I suppose. The general idea is to add a new currency to the challenge log tasks, call them wolf medallions or whatever, and use them as an alternative currency for the weekly capped tomestone gear. However, only allow this in the odd numbered catch up patches. For even numbered patches, add the tomestone upgrade items for the previous tier. This gives alternative ways to catch up to the base line or another way to gear up alt jobs after the current raid progression tier has started to cool off. And hopefully avoids stepping on the toes of PVE purists or pressuring them into PVP.

As an example, lets say 4.2 added the upgrade items from Deltascape & Rabanastre. While 4.3 would allow you to purchase tomestone gear for mendacity equipment. 4.4 would then allow you to purchase the upgrade items from Sigmascape & Ridoran.

I'll try to clearly lay out my thoughts on this system.

Benefits

• No or minimal new art assets required.
• Encourages participation in frontlines, astralagos & the feast.
• Incentivizes actually trying to win, but also gives a few rewards just for participating.
• Maintains a weekly limit due to the challenge log so people can't, or won't, excessively grind.
• Focuses on helping people catch up instead of replacing the current progression method, something this game leans heavily on already.
• May potentially help revitalize interest in other content due to people using this method to gear up alternate jobs.

Drawbacks

• A cycling of the currency type every 2 patches, similar to tomestones, would be required so people don't stockpile resources for the next item tier.
• Tomestone gear can be upgraded, unlike 24man raid or crafted gear traditionally used in catch up patches. You'll still be running those alliance raids for upgrade tokens and even more gear though.
• Some people may feel pressured into doing PVP so they can gear up faster.
• Some people might get frustrated trying to chase challenge log wins, but keep losing and potentially missing out on a reward.
• Doesn't really address feast reward issues other than potentially increasing the amount of low ranked players participating.
• S-E probably sees this as double dipping on tomestone gear and acquiring it too quickly, which may be some kind of game design heresy to them.

I know a lot of people got into PVP as an alternative way to get tomestones because they were so sick of the constant expert roulette routine. My hope is a system like this could make PVP more worthwhile and also increase interest in it.