DRK changes - opinions thus far

[Quor]

I'd like to make this post in order to get an idea of what other people who play DRK think about the recent changes. Please try and keep it constructive criticism. Or at least mitigate the snark somewhat. Some snark is ok, but let's try not to jump it shall we?


First off, the good stuff
The Shadow Wall change is probably the single most noticeable thing. A 120s CD has been a long time coming. I would like to see something else to make it a bit more "DRK" than a simple Sentinel-cloned skill with 2/3 the CD. Maybe make it so that while active, self-healing and mana gain effects are doubled. This would give it some nice synergy with Sole Survivor and Souleater, as you could then time SS to expire during SW shortly after a buster and more or less self-heal the damage from it. It would be on a 2 minute CD, so not an amazing amount of self-healing, but something that rewards knowing a fight and planning ahead.

Speaking of Sole Survivor, now that it's a guaranteed heal upon expiration, I've found myself timing it in such a way as to help heal incoming damage from a number of mechanics. Guardian's initial tank buster in O7s is a great example, as you can pop SS shortly after you engage him as prep for his upcoming tank buster. I'd like to see a bit more control over SS, specifically in the form of a "detonate" button that expires the buff and provides the healing for it immediately. It's a nice challenge to try and time things with it's current duration, and maybe this suggestion is a bit too much, but I think this, coupled with the SW change above, would grant DRK's some much needed parity with PLD and WAR when it comes to clutch self-healing.

The Plunge and Dark Passenger changes are also quite welcome. I thought the 60s CD on DP would annoy more than it has, but it still tends to be up when I need it more often than not. The fact that it's also DPS neutral vs. using DA on almost everything takes off some of the bite of blowing MP on it vs. a single target, but it's still not something I use any more than I did before outside of AoE situations. The extra threat on it is quite nice, as is the extra threat on Plunge. DA+Plunge has annoyed me a few times, but it's not as bad as I anticipated. I actually like it as an opener now, as it completely removes the need for me to use Power Slash early on, and that's without a NIN in the group (but everyone else is using aggro management tools). It's great as threat maintenance throughout a fight as well.

Lastly, the Grit cost reduction and Darkside QoL changes are both just nice things to have. The Darkside thing should have happened awhile ago, but the Grit change was unexpected and very welcome. I also don't mind the Dark Mind change, although it feels a little boring without the DA option, even if it was something of a false choice. As a general rule, I like the idea of DA being something that "empowers" DRK in some way, as opposed to being considered a "baseline" for something DRK does. I like choice, and I'd like there to be choices, even if they're just relatively small ones, as long as they are impactful in some way. They can be niche, but they add depth to a class, and that depth is ultimately what makes a class worth playing imo.

Stuff I don't really feel strongly about one way or another
The potency increase on Power Slash is....nice. It's not a loss now, as long as you ignore the fact that you're using PS. I won't look a gift horse in the mouth, but I still maintain that tank aggro combos need something added to them to warrant their use beyond the initial pull. PLD RoH used to give a debuff that was powerful, and thus justified it's use every 20s or so, but now all three aggro combo's bring nothing unique to the table that a tank can't already get elsewhere. I've posted a number of suggestions that I would like to see implemented, but I have to go with one Kabooa (I think it was Kabooa) suggested once; add a "fractured" debuff effect to each aggro combo that lasts for 30s, stacks twice, and increases damage dealt to the target by 2% per stack. A single person could only apply one stack of the debuff, so in an 8-man both tanks would have justification for using their aggro combo at least once every 30s, since a 4% raid DPS increase is a small price to pay for using an aggro combo.

Alternatively, make aggro actually matter in this game. I'm happy that DPS and healer classes have tools that allow them to manage their aggro, but I miss the days of having to fight to keep aggro from my best DPS, even when they had Quelling Strikes up.

And finally, the bad stuff
Why can't I hold all these Dark Arts? I mean, if SE is going to give us more fights like Famfrit where we can sit inside the pot waterfall with Blood Price up and literally be swimming in MP while we're tickled for damage, then sure, the Dark Arts spam level is acceptable. But outside of that highly specific Grit-necessary circumstance, the level of DA is simply too damn high. I don't really know what to suggest here, as I'm not really sure what direction SE wants to take this. Don't get me wrong, I *like* Dark Arts as an idea. I like it in practice too, for the most part. It's just right now, there's too damn much of it. Toning it back a bit would be great, but I doubt that would impact DRK in a positive way overall. Something else would have to replace it, and either it would be a big buff to numbers (functional, if boring) or else some new mechanic to add on to an already mechanic-heavy class.

I wish I could add more to this one as far as suggestions go, but I'm really a loss.

Overall opinion
I'd call it a solid B. It's almost all positive, with the one glaring negative (to me anyway) being the increased DA usage on top of an already DA-hungry playstyle. My shining example of hope in this patch is the Sole Survivor change. It's a uniquely DRK mechanic that always grants a meaningful reward in such a way that it feels impactful to how the job plays. If the changes that are coming follow the SS change in terms of quality, then it's something I look forward too. Functional and unique beats out functional but boring any day of the week.

[Derio]

I knew they were not going to be able to remove the dark arts treadmill, as they said a rework would take 6+ months.

I am just glad we got these adjustments because it could be worse and we could have been PLD 3.0 all over again.

[347SPECTRE]

It'd be nice to see blood gain on other combo skills outside of blood weapon. Possibly also more interaction with black blood.
Dark Knight definitely feels more sturdy,which I do enjoy, a bit more dps would make it that much more solid IMO.

[Tanathya]

Shadow Wall's the best change so far, Sole Survivor isn't all that bad now against bosses, but the rest is barely noticeable. I still use them in the same context I used to do when SB hit.

[Mycow8me]

I'm of the opinion that sole survivor should give 20/20% immediately and then another 10% if mob is killed. It's hard to plan its usefulness 15 seconds later unless you are strictly keeping your MP pool low. May as well forget planning the HP necessity 15 seconds later. Also it can't even be used to assist with walking dead unless its used way before it procs with that long of a duration.

Don't get me wrong, its a step in the right direction for it but the 20%'s should definitely be immediate IMHO.

[TouchandFeel]

I feel that the changes that were implemented in 4.3 were all positives, with some being little QoL niceties and others being much needed buffs/fixes.

Power Slash: I've been asking for the extra DA potency to be added to PS for a while, so I am quite happy about this. It helps with putting out a bit more damage and enmity in your opener as well as helps with single target snap aggro. May not be a job altering change but definitely helpful.
Dark Passenger: This is a huge improvement over the previous incarnation of the ability, so I am happy about that.
Dark Mind: While I had hoped Dark Mind would be changed to not be magic damage only, this was a substantial buff that also touched on one of the things I have been wanting to see, the removal of DA effects from OGCD abilities.
Darkside: A nice little QoL change.
Shadow Wall: FINALLY! Seriously, it boggles my mind that it took this long to get this change.
Plunge:This one I am a little more torn on. The faster execution was needed and I like that it provides the option for an extra enmity ability that can be woven into your rotation, but I have mixed feelings about them adding it in via a DA effect since I dislike DA effects on OGCDs. I do however feel that the pros the Plunge changes bring do somewhat outweigh my dislike of DA+OGCDs.
Sole Survivor: A definite improvement, although I agree that trying to time it as a burst heal is a bit odd. I like the OP's suggestion of being able to end it early to get the 20% heal.

However while these were all positive changes, I still feel that there is a good amount of stuff that still needs fixing.

Here is a quick list of things that I feel still need to be addressed in no particular order.

- Soul Eater heal out of Grit and overall a bit better self-healing.
- Making Unleashed have an identity/purpose so it isn't practically overwritten by Abyssal Drain or getting rid of it altogether and having AD be learned at low lvl and interacting with Unmend instead. Would need a new ability to fill it's place if it were removed.
- Making the potency increases from DA more consistent across the board for GCD abilities, such as giving DA+AD an additional +50 potency like DA+Quietus.
- Getting rid of the Grit/Out-of-Grit separate potencies for Bloodspiller and making Quietus and Bloodspiller just simply ignore the Grit damage penalty.
- Addressing the feel of Dark Arts usage. See some of my ideas on the topic here .
- Making Delerium feel more impactful such as adding an effect where the additional potency from DA is increased during its duration.
- Make Living Dead more user friendly, such as better messaging for the transition into the Walking Dead state and doing something about the way the whole healing requirement and punishment is handled. Right now it is too punishing, too obscured and too out of the control of the DRK player. Honestly, I would prefer they just scrap LD and redo the DRK invuln ability.
- Adding more value to Blood Price by increasing it's MP restore and/or adding some other effect such as +20% to Parry like Dark Dance had.
- Smoothing out the numbers/values of the MP pool and MP costs/gains of abilities. Right now they are a bit too disjointed overall.

Overall, I feel that the changes in 4.3 were great steps in the right direction but there is still a long road ahead.

[Jandor]

Overall, changes are ok.

Dark Mind and Shadow wall are both great buffs.
Power Slash buff is nice.
Plunge is ok, nice for pull or grabbing an add.
Sole Survivor is better, I think I'd prefer 20%HP/30%MP up front with CD reset if target is killed. 20%MP is just shy of 1x DA.

[ArianeEwah]

Without a doubt, this patch was very positive for DRK, especially for its defensive toolkit.

There are still a few points I can't get friendly with, but more later.

First...
Power Slash: This was a must - for ages. DRK enmity combo was the one that hurt the most. Dunno whether it still is or not, but the "cost/reward" compared to SE combo is almost even now.

Dark Passenger: Definitly a buff compared to pre-4.3, and a big buff on 2+ targets, even on 60s CD. Bonus enmity wasn't necessary, but still neat.
My concern here is: it's NOT DPS neutral on single target and still a nerf (DPS-wise) compared to pre-4.0.
Why not DPS neutral, it does 140 potency?! It is DPS neutral in solo content. Once you have a party with NIN, SAM or WAR for slashing debuff, it's actually 10% weaker than any other DA-skill. Credit to Crater to point that out on another thread.
On HW-Dark Passenger: Its cost was lower than a DA and had 150 base potency (+100 DA potency) on 30s CD. So, whether it was single target or 2+ targets, HW version was much stronger than current version.
(2x150 potency vs. 1x140+140 DA potency in 60s - first for less mana cost)
Not game-breaking, but wanted to point out that.

Dark Mind+Shadow Wall+Sole Survivor: I have nothing to bargain, those changes are just awesome and the biggest buffs for DRK. All abilities are by far inferior to any pre-4.3 versions.

Plunge: Finally, animation delay reduced, and it feels awesome. Even if many other people say they hate DA-spamming, the DA-change to Plunge is just too good. DRK MT has become so much easier with DA-Plunge. I don't know the impact yet, but DRK might not even need Power Slash anymore. And DA-Plunge is actually DPS neutral, so no throwbacks. I welcome this change!

Last, but not least...
Darkside: QoL change, saves you 600 mana. Still hope SE makes this a trait in thier re-work/-design, there is no reason not to.

[Valdegarde]

Very happy. I feel like I have an action for situations now, instead of having to scramble together to present a defense that's merely survivable while sacrificing a lot. Dark Mind and Shadow Wall are just fantastic, I can feel less guilty about using Shadow Wall when I need to, knowing it'll be up sooner. Dark Mind is just infinitely more usable. Enmity generation is nice, having the added complexity of wanting to always dark arts Plunge as a main tank makes me feel like we're headed back to a better structured priority system, which I missed. Dark Passenger is cool, I'm using it for snap stuff if Plunge is down and I'm working a combo up to Power Slash, but juuuust 10% more damage on it and we can leave the skill alone until 5.0. So close. (Or more than 10%...I'd like something like a DA C&S -> DP -> Plunge priority system or something, but maybe that's wishful thinking)

However, these things still make Dark Knight's weaknesses even more apparent now. I feel Dark Knight is finally on par cooldown-wise, but not necessarily usability or damage-wise, considering the continued clunkiness of Dark Arts and TBN. It seems strange that Syphon Strike still consumes a Dark Arts when we finally have reason to use our other skills. Especially tanking in Grit (gasp!) you never have enough to do everything you need to do. I feel Grit tanking needs to be a vast amount less restricted, or souleater/blood weapon should have some HP drain regardless of stance. Dark Arts priority system with skill effects is a nice start, keep that up and make it into core mechanic. TBN is still overly punishing for its intended usage. At this point I wouldn't mind blood and MP generation from TBN being totally removed and have it reset Plunge's cooldown or something when used, and add blood generation to any dark arts-ed skill.

I'm hopeful for the first time that Dark Knight is headed in a direction, potentially positive, instead of being stagnant and invisible.

[shao32]

still cant compete with the other 2 but the buff make it more versatile and make sole survivor a usefull skill on every place is pretty welcome, still much to do to be perfect but it was a good buff