Holmgang is way too strong for how short the CD is and needs to be nerfed.

[Saeno]

The skill has two downsides in that you need a target to use the move and you also can't move while it's active.

The first downside is moot since you're always going to have something to target when using this move.

The second downside is actually used as a positive in many cases since people will use it to prevent heavy hitting damage that would also knock back the user, like Head on.

What are your thoughts on Holmgang?

[shao32]

i think WAR entire defensive kit need to be revised and rebalance in terms of mitigation power and recast in general, with holmgang and vengeance on top of the list.
probably fix inner beast and make it part of they efective defensive kit but that a revamp i think it have to be save to the next expansion, WAR's get to much love already.

[ImDingDing]

i think WAR entire defensive kit need to be revised and rebalance in terms of mitigation power and recast in general, with holmgang and vengeance on top of the list.
probably fix inner beast and make it part of they efective defensive kit but that a revamp i think it have to be save to the next expansion, WAR's get to much love already.

Sure, let's lock dark mind behind Grit with same logic. Lol

[shao32]

Sure, let's lock dark mind behind Grit with same logic. Lol

with the same logic DRK sould have a 120 CD on shadow wall + a effect and longer duration, grit offGDC with no mp cost and a extra CD that can empower a party shield we dont have and our self heals from souleater need to be unlock from grit, but this is not a threat about what DRK needs, we have already some of those and we are go to recive hopefully a lot of chages on all of those.
Dark mind is only comparable to raw intuition with the diference Dark mind is useless against physical compared to raw that can feed shake it off and being extra magic mitigation.

but this is a threat about how holmgang is so strong in terms of being aviable so much, in heavensward you still have foresight so yeah it make sense due you only have vengeance as a primary mitigation tool on optimal gameplay, but now you have rampart with is shorted recast and better overall mitigation on both type of damage vs foresight physical armor boost, there is no sense WAR have the same mitigation tools as the other 2 with unfairly short colddowns compared to he brothers, with the current kit holmang is pretty OP.

[Launched]

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

[shao32]

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

the root is not a downside when is not a problem to cheese so many mechanics in the game, sheltron and TBN are comparable to the huge amout of cds WAR have to pair with rampart and vengeance.

[Chrono_Rising]

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

Paladin has a 7 minute cooldown and a 3 minute cooldown. Warrior has a 3 minute cooldown as its longest option, a minute and a half option if they happen to line up, and a 15 second option in the form of a gap closer. The root is not an issue and gives flexibility to a skill which you are trying to re-purpose as a downside. This flexibility will be even more valuable if we ever see a tank buster like a11s that pushed you off the edge unless you were rooted in place, or took no damage.

[Saeno]

Holmgang is a lot less valuable than people on this forum think because of how PLD and DRK got strong, low cooldown mitigation skills (Sheltron/Intervention and TBN) usable on every tankbuster.

You mention Sheltron and TBN, but you can use those skills on the WAR as well so I really don't see what you mean. Vengeance, Raw intution and Thrill also disagree with your statement of PLD and DRK having many short recast CDs, because in fact WAR is the definition of "tank with many strong, low recast CDs".

The root is definitely a downside because you almost always have to choose between the two effects, compared to PLD which has Tempered and Hallowed on separate cooldowns.

Except Inner release is a thing, which gives you an effect that is better than Tempered will. WAR can also Onslaught any knock backs. You will almost always use Holmgang as a tank CD.

[Launched]

You mention Sheltron and TBN, but you can use those skills on the WAR as well so I really don't see what you mean. Vengeance, Raw intution and Thrill also disagree with your statement of PLD and DRK having many short recast CDs, because in fact WAR is the definition of "tank with many strong, low recast CDs".

My point is that Sheltron and TBN allow PLD and DRK to take tankbusters while keeping other longer cooldowns for things like autoattacks and cleaves. In HW, Holmgang did 2 things: it could be used to replace a normal cooldown to survive a tankbuster, and it could be used to ignore mechanics that would usually force a swap. It was mostly used for the first option. The reason that was good was that it meant your cooldowns were up for other things, and PLD/DRK didn't really have any skills that did the same (PLD had Sheltron, but it was physical only). Now in SB, Sheltron can block everything and DRK got an incredibly strong shield. Sheltron is up every 20-25s, TBN is every 15s. My Sheltron is 28% with an i270 shield, that's almost identical to having Vengeance or Shadow Wall up for every single tankbuster, so why use Holmgang and drop to 1hp when I could use Sheltron and safely survive it? That's why Holmgang isn't as valuable.

I didn't say PLD/DRK got many low recast skills. They got one each but the recast is so incredibly short that they pretty much completely make up for WAR's shorter recasts/more skills.

The recent Reddit post on tank damage taken/mitigation also shows that WAR doesn't have any mitigation advantage. I'm not going to go read through it all and repeat it, but it showed that WAR+DRK groups generally took the most damage while PLD+DRK and PLD+WAR were pretty similar. PLD is the constant in groups with higher mitigation, not WAR.

Except Inner release is a thing, which gives you an effect that is better than Tempered will. WAR can also Onslaught any knock backs. You will almost always use Holmgang as a tank CD.

I've only done O5S as WAR so I don't know how other fights line up, but IR doesn't seem to line up perfectly with knockbacks and it's not something you'll want to delay for them.

[Saeno]

My point is that Sheltron and TBN allow PLD and DRK to take tankbusters while keeping other longer cooldowns for things like auto attacks and cleaves. Sheltron is up every 20-25s, TBN is every 15s. My Sheltron is 28% with an i270 shield, that's almost identical to having Vengeance or Shadow Wall up for every single tankbuster, so why use Holmgang and drop to 1hp when I could use Sheltron and safely survive it? That's why Holmgang isn't as valuable.

You will not survive Dual cast Thunder lll with Sheltron. You will not survive Hyperdrive in normal Kefka with Sheltron. You sure as hell won't survive anything in Ultimate with Sheltron over Holmgang. Sheltron is also a single use skill that can be taken up with auto attacks while holmgang is a tried and true 6 seconds invul.

I didn't say PLD/DRK got many low recast skills. They got one each but the recast is so incredibly short that they pretty much completely make up for WAR's shorter recasts/more skills.

The moves in question that you mentioned are skills that can be used on the WAR too. So Saying they help DRK and PLD mitigation alone isnt exactly true when they also help the WAR's mitigation.

The recent Reddit post on tank damage taken/mitigation also shows that WAR doesn't have any mitigation advantage. I'm not going to go read through it all and repeat it, but it showed that WAR+DRK groups generally took the most damage while PLD+DRK and PLD+WAR were pretty similar. PLD is the constant in groups with higher mitigation, not WAR.

That post used FFlogs damage taken as reference. This is fair because that's where most people take info from, but one thing FFlogs does is it accurately records how much damage is taken by each party member no matter what. This is an issue because when the WAR takes damage under Holmgang, they will obviously take the full brunt of the damage and that will be reflected on the WAR's damage taken, even though they could have have taken 999,999 damage and it would not have made a difference since the WAR used Holmgang. The same is true for Living dead. You take the full amount of damage. So obviously when you take the tank that makes damage intake into 0 with Hallowed ground, as well as Divine veil for the party, cover and intervention, the damage taken by each member will be much lower with a PLD.

I've only done O5S as WAR so I don't know how other fights line up, but IR doesn't seem to line up perfectly with knockbacks and it's not something you'll want to delay for them.

After you use Inner release inside of the ghost room, the next "All in the mind" happens exactly 100s after that phase ends. If you delay your inner release by a few globals, you will be in Inner release during the knock back.

As it stands, WAR's cannot line up IR with the knock back in o7s but this is a non issue since Onslaught and Holmgang do the same thing for the WAR.

In O8s, the WAR can use Inner release for either (or both) of the knockbacks from Graven Image and Aero assault, but it is not effective DPS wise to do this. Often, the WAR will be covered by the PLD for the aero assault so they can IR under storms eye.