An alternative to parsing?

[KaldeaSahaline]

Well from my experience, I always tell people nicely, and it usually goes smoothly, I'd say, 80% of the time with green sprouts.

I'd probably agree with green sprouts. My success rate may be a good bit lower than 80%, but it's certainly over 50%.

The issue I think though, is what is your experience like in actual end game content? How many times do you offer good advice that is taken well?

Then average the two. That's where I'm getting my insight from.

The thing is that in this case, I could say, if you fail to dodge one aoe, you were carried too...

Context is important here. Did this AOE kill you? Or did it just deal damage? If the AOE killed you and dropped you below equivalency then yes, it would indicate a carry. If you still remained above the threshold then you're fine. For instance, like a complete **** idiot, I went an entire O5S without an Oath on. I still managed an upper 70th percentile (I'm max geared though). I didn't drop below equivalency here because I still maintained enough DPS to carry my weight. It doesn't absolve me of being an idiot though.

If you died on the first clear, thus spent 90 second with the rez debuff and most likely failed the dps check, you were carried...

Again, all relative to equivalency (again the measure of if everyone else played similarly would you have succeeded). As long as you pull your weight you were not carried.

I remember someone criticizing me at the beginning of stormblood, after looking at my log of my first o1s clear, saying I was carried cause I didn't use a single holy spirit... By that time, I was so focused on mechs I also remember our pug barely clearing it... But as MT that time, I really have a hard time understanding how I couldve been carried... I sure was well below average dps at that time (think I pulled something around 2.5K at that time), but as a MT, if I kept on failing and dying,

I dont want to hurt anyone, but I actually feel like there's a lot of condescending feeling when people point out dps. Even though it may not be the case, that is how most people will feel.

• You weren't MT in the fight you're referencing
• You barely outperformed (~130 DPS) the MT (another PLD) despite being in Sword Oath full time and them being in Shield Oath for 93% of the fight
• You died twice
• You pulled 1.8K DPS, not 2.5K

For reference, in an O1S log from the same week I performed nearly 1,400 DPS higher than you.

With all due respect, you were carried. You failed the equivalency test. Please don't treat this as an attack on you personally. That is not my intent. My goal here is simply to make sure that you understand my POV and how I arrived at my conclusion.

I may not be the best BRD and I prefer to think I'm at least not trash, but before I cleared God Kefka, I could not reliably kill the V8S dummy on time; several times it had a couple percentages of health left. With only half my BiS. Then I cleared God Kefka no problems. And I like to think I was not carried since I netted a blue on my first clear. It certainly wasn't a rotational problem on my part.

SSS is still a horrible judge of readiness for a given fight.

I won't deny that SSS is garbage because it is. However, we're specifically citing the O5S (so entry dummy tuned to entry gear).

Looking at your referenced log, you did not fail equivalency, thus you were not carried, but you knew that already.

[Moogly]

With all due respect, you were carried. You failed the equivalency test. Please don't treat this as an attack on you personally. That is not my intent. My goal here is simply to make sure that you understand my POV and how I arrived at my conclusion.

That is your POV though, as I said, for many people, a clear is a clear, no matter how sloppy it was.
To me, "carried" means, like you said, dude pays you guys and then sits in a corner watching you people kill the boss.
If I stayed dead the whole fight - there wouldve been no clear at all.
I think I mostly died on those thunder blows you had to share - if I failed that mech, and let a dps take the blow, there wouldve been no clear also.
I have no static and only pug, so my kills are usually nowhere near the quality of those youtube kills - usually chaotics... but still, boss is ded.

You'll sometimes see some world/server first kills that are really sloppy, with people making mistakes and dying, even sometimes a clear with a healer lb3 in it. Would you still consider the lesser players from those groups as being carried for their world first ? Would those teams kick the lower dps from their roster after each kill ?
A kill is a team work.

Imo having such a binary mindset isn't a good way to handle things. Even if at my level, I am working to get better, then players like KaivaC actively into savage, who are doing their best, are striving to get better and are getting clears : to me, they're not being carried. He doesn't clear sss ? One or two gear update later, he will, so what ?

Also, if such a mindset keeps being the dominant one, more and more people won't stand wiping 2 or 3 times... We all have our own pace at learning things, but if you can't even try more than 2 or 3 times, how do you actually want to improve :s ? And of course, dont forget chat flame wars...

On the other hand, I think only once or twice did I find a group in which we would wipe for 2-3 full timer runs - without a clear.
How did those groups ended ?
"Well too bad"
"Good luck, I hope you'll get it next time"
And so on.

tl;dr, : I think the term "carried" isn't constructive in a "I want to get better" thread

[Rokke]

tl;dr, : I think the term "carried" isn't constructive in a "I want to get better" thread

People who want to get better can still be carried. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[KaivaC]

People who want to get better can still be carried. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Perhaps. Let us just say that I am being carried all the time, as I cannot clear the dummy, and I am incapable of outputting anything beyond 4k at my best. It would be fair to say that, in the context of what we've talked about lately, that I am always being carried, thus forcing the other 7 party members to pick up my slack, yes? Thus, either I would need to play better, or I should stay away from Savage. Because otherwise, I am just waiting everybody else's time and ruining their runs. In a sense, I think that for the most part, being carried and wanting to get better go hand-in-hand with each other. Some people are simply unable to get better because they are playing to the best of their abilities.

[Machka]

A parser can be used to harras, but can also protec

[Nhadaly]

Perhaps. Let us just say that I am being carried all the time, as I cannot clear the dummy, and I am incapable of outputting anything beyond 4k at my best. It would be fair to say that, in the context of what we've talked about lately, that I am always being carried, thus forcing the other 7 party members to pick up my slack, yes? Thus, either I would need to play better, or I should stay away from Savage. Because otherwise, I am just waiting everybody else's time and ruining their runs. In a sense, I think that for the most part, being carried and wanting to get better go hand-in-hand with each other. Some people are simply unable to get better because they are playing to the best of their abilities.

I want to improve myself too, it doesnt mean i get carried.

I know that theres room of improvement for me, and im working to improve myself, but that doesnt mean i dont carry my weight every time i play with others....

Saying that those who want to improve get carried is insulting to those who carry their weight already and just want to bring every bit of their ability out either for their own sake or the team they are playing for, or both.

[KaivaC]

Can't deny that there's some truth to the words though that every single one of my clears had me being carried. I don't think it's an insult. The posters above me have a point. All my dps clears on both normal and savage, I have been dead last for a DPS. It stands to reason that in spite of what I do to ensure I do everything I can to help my party out, I am still the weak link.

It's not an insult. Maybe before I would've gotten upset about it, and I'd have been in your position. But lately after seeing it so many times, those who have been saying that low skill players are being carried... I don't believe that they are wrong. I feel like there's a lot of truth in their words.

[HyoMinPark]

SSS only shows that you know the basics.

And this is why I don’t think SSS is a good judge of player readiness. A basic rotation won’t save you from mechanics. It won’t teach you how to heal or pre-emptively shield from AOE damage. It won’t teach you how to tank swap, or cooldown for tankbusters. It’s even a poor measure of DPS, because they scale it up to account for the lack of all of the above. We can agree to disagree, but I’ve always thought it was a poor indicator since they first put it in the game and I began to actively raid.

[Ovenmitts]

Perhaps. Let us just say that I am being carried all the time, as I cannot clear the dummy, and I am incapable of outputting anything beyond 4k at my best. It would be fair to say that, in the context of what we've talked about lately, that I am always being carried, thus forcing the other 7 party members to pick up my slack, yes? Thus, either I would need to play better, or I should stay away from Savage. Because otherwise, I am just waiting everybody else's time and ruining their runs. In a sense, I think that for the most part, being carried and wanting to get better go hand-in-hand with each other. Some people are simply unable to get better because they are playing to the best of their abilities.

Can't deny that there's some truth to the words though that every single one of my clears had me being carried. I don't think it's an insult. The posters above me have a point. All my dps clears on both normal and savage, I have been dead last for a DPS. It stands to reason that in spite of what I do to ensure I do everything I can to help my party out, I am still the weak link.

It's not an insult. Maybe before I would've gotten upset about it, and I'd have been in your position. But lately after seeing it so many times, those who have been saying that low skill players are being carried... I don't believe that they are wrong. I feel like there's a lot of truth in their words.

Kaiva, you say this isn't affecting you and I have to disagree. These posts you're making in this topic are starting to get more and more removed from the op at hand and more to your personal experiences in savage. They're emotional even if you deny it. There's a heavy feeling of defeat in the way you're talking about yourself.

It's like I said earlier and what these people are trying to tell you. And to anyone else that may be doubting their performance in savage. You may not give yourself credit, but I am certain there is more room for growth in your performance. And we're not talking about anything serious here. This is a video game. You play this for entertainment and to take it easy after a hard day at work or school or whatever. Video games are not your day job. You can suck at a video game and still have fun at it. It's a hobby. That's how hobbies work. Just because you make gray logs doesn't suddenly mean you're grounded from having fun. Sure, you're not the best at what you do, but you can still enjoy savage at a casual level. It's not a crime to admit you like something casually. You can't be the best at everything, and most people here aren't high parsers on their first runs either. You have to remember that it isn't the end of the world if you're not great at something right from the get go.

You definitely won't get better though if you constantly talk like you've already given up. Isn't that what this thread is about? Self improvement? Ways to help people get better at this game? Find yourself a friend that you know is good at a class you like and just ask them for pointers. That's what I did when I first tried savage content in here. I looked up what resources I could and tried out everything on a housing dummy.

Some people learn fast and others learn in baby steps. It's not how you get to the destination, it's the fact that you're making progress along the way. I think that's sufficient enough soap boxing for this thread.

[KaivaC]

snip

This isn't a defeatist attitude. I'm just being realistic about myself. But while I'm not being emotional about this, I can see how some may think there's some emotions behind what I'm saying. You're right, I brought my own experience into this, and that was a mistake. It threw this whole thread completely off-topic. So let's get back to it.

Another reason I think this would help players, now that I think about is, is because there are a lot of other players out there who either don't have the right FC, or a good group of friends (or friend) that could sit down and help them improve. Granted, the raiding community is small compared to the overall player base, but there are some out there who could use some in-game help that gives them active feedback on their performance. Riyah made a mention of a grading system a while back. It could be subjective, depending on how the devs overtune it, but I could see a grading system having some effect if its paired with something meant for training and improvement purposes. Obviously, grading wouldn't really matter much in dungeons and raids. But who knows, could attach a new title to this. It could fall in line, story-wise, with the WoL inspiring other adventurers to follow in their footsteps, and the training thingy could be utilized in the context of the WoL testing it before it is sold.