An alternative to parsing?

[Rokke]

If raiders would leave without being able to parse, that right there tells me they aren't all that great of players to begin with. If you NEED a third party tool, then perhaps you need to get better at the game. A parser is a crutch used to counter their lack of skill.

lmao
/10char

[Sebazy]

If raiders would leave without being able to parse, that right there tells me they aren't all that great of players to begin with. If you NEED a third party tool, then perhaps you need to get better at the game. A parser is a crutch used to counter their lack of skill.

Hiya. Truth be told, it sounds like you actually have an issue with triggers rather than the parsing side of things.

Please keep in mind that for progression minded raiders, parsing is primarily a tool that is used to corroborate and verify both individual and team performances in content where these matter significantly.

As mentioned earlier, using a parser in this manner most definitely isn't a crutch. Optimising your own play ahead of the curve and MrHappy videos can be challenging, particularly for more dot centric classes (Look at how SMN went from Zero to Hero in early ARR as dot damage became more understood). Imagine trying to conduct research without any means to test or validate your experiments. You wouldn't be able to achieve much and frankly, this was how things went for the most part in early ARR. It's also ironic to note that even though we didn't have any accurate numbers back then, there was still very much a meta for BCOB even if in hindsight, it likely wasn't correct.

Calling Triggers a crutch is a much fairer point and I suspect you'd be better received if you went with this instead. I will balance this thought by noting that there isn't a lot of difference between a Trigger and coordinating/calling mechanics over voice comms.

With that cleared up, don't you think that an in game Parser that didn't offer any Trigger functionality would be a good thing?

Cheers

[miraidensetsu]

If raiders would leave without being able to parse, that right there tells me they aren't all that great of players to begin with. If you NEED a third party tool, then perhaps you need to get better at the game. A parser is a crutch used to counter their lack of skill.

Strange... For me, those numbers throws at the user's face how bad he is.

There are some that use those numbers to try to get better, while others will hide their own badness behind some elitist discourse or some harassing (that could be done based on another data). It makes easier for the player to figure out where he's sucking and try to correct that.

[Shurrikhan]

If raiders would leave without being able to parse, that right there tells me they aren't all that great of players to begin with. If you NEED a third party tool, then perhaps you need to get better at the game. A parser is a crutch used to counter their lack of skill.

The tool does not benefit any given attempt, itself.

It does, however, inform for purposes of improvement. And with improvement comes culpability. When damage has been lost to mistakes or optimizations not yet made, the solution is in identifying the problems (who are particular players at particular events in the fight, not just players, and not just events).

If the majority of my party told me they refused to be parsed, my assumption would be simple: they wish to gag order any actual evidence by which to make progress, out of fear of being held accountable proportionate to their success or lack thereof. Sure, some of the information to measure success is already there, but it is generally insufficient to point out empirically areas of available improvement. If my team is selfish enough to deny the group that just so that they won't feel a small pang of guilt when they screw up their CDs or the like, that's a community not a community I'd want any part of. And so I'd leave, not because I'm not able to use a given tool, but because those I'd otherwise be running with demand that it is more important that we remain blinded than the group improves, presumably on the basis that one man's unwarranted guilt outweighs an entire group's potential for helpful analysis.

You may as well join a book club but refuse to hear any opinion varying from your own. Why would I want to run with anyone holding such a counter-intuitive mindset?

Edit: To be clear, I don't like being held accountable by an outlier any more than the next guy, or even having my prospects questioned or participation declined over past histories (if that should ever happen) that I may have since improved beyond. My every fflogs parse, for instance, are 100% from trap parties, uploaded without my even knowing, and average some 15% lower in percentile than my norms when my raid lead tosses them up temporarily to see how we match up over given pieces of the fights. But over the course of a fight, where it IS wholly relevant? What could possibly be the problem with being shown as performing poorly if you are performing poorly? It's not going to be taken as precedent for another fight with divergent circumstances; that information doesn't leave the instance, or likely even the pull. It's just pure, accurate feedback. So why not let it inform you so you can more quickly improve?

[KaldeaSahaline]

It's pretty common place for some jobs to be unable to clear their SSS dummy even in the hands of a world class progression player upon a new tier's release.

It's not a new tiers release though and we're talking the O5S dummy. There's very little excuse to not be able to clear it right now, unless you're literally min ilvl (which given FF14's design is exceptionally unlikely).

I'm being carried because I can't clear a dummy?

Consistently in the 1% - 5% range, based on the last several times I've fought the v5s dummy.

Looking at one of your more recent logs, yeah probably. It sucks to hear, but if you extrapolate your performance across your entire team, you have to ask yourself - would you clear under those circumstances? If the answer is no, then you did not pull equivalent weight, thus you were carried.

What ilvl and job are we talking about for context?

To all those people saying they're getting negative reactions after giving advice to other people, I'd like to ask a question :
Are you telling them this in a nice way, like "You should use spell A, you shouldn't do this or that..."
Or are you more like : "Git gud noob !"

I've said it before. It doesn't matter how polite you are. How nice and sugary you word it, or many many cute catgirl meme's with winks and thumbs up you post; people are abrasive when offered advice that they're not interested in hearing. If someone WANTS advice it's fine, but most people don't.

If you do mechanics right, clear the boss, but do not manage to clear the dummy it doesn't mean you were carried.

This is actually the literal definition of carried. Try not to get hung up on negative connotations and feelings and look at it objectively. If you do not have the necessary throughput the game dictates (barring the isolated examples of min ilvl beginning progression), then you did not do all of the mechanics right. You failed the DPS mechanic.

If you fail equivalency (which is the measure of if everyone performed at your level would you have cleared) you were carried. There are obviously different degrees of carried though; i.e. Kaiva vs. a buyer. Both carried, but one considerably more so than the other.

I'll give additional context from WoW - I sell Mythic+ runs there. I have buyers who are content to simply AFK and let us do all the work. I have buyers who insist they want to try and contribute. In the end, they're almost all generally carried (I've had a few buyers who pulled their own weight, obviously less than us, but had they had a team of equals they'd have been fine, thus passing equivalency).

And just look at how the raid community attacks each other with their parses already.

Just curious - where did you derive this insight from? It wasn't actual experience in FF14 (according to FFLogs you don't raid), and considering my anecdotal experience states otherwise, I'd be curious if you could quantify it.

I have to respectfully disagree. The greys that I've been getting lately, I personally view as an indicator that I'm a bad player. Which is why, again, I want something more than just the SSS dummy.

I'm all for a better tool (I'm in favor of a 100% official unmitigated open full party parser), but I wanted to chime in here. You are a lower skilled player (bad is relative). That's ok. There's nothing WRONG with being lower skilled as long as you respect that.

You're very good at that (nowadays) so the easy next step is simply improving from there.

If you were interested in getting better at PLD and were on my DC, I'd personally help you get where you want to get. I'll gladly extend that offer to any other PLDs on Primal should they want help.

[Moogly]

I've said it before. It doesn't matter how polite you are. How nice and sugary you word it, or many many cute catgirl meme's with winks and thumbs up you post; people are abrasive when offered advice that they're not interested in hearing. If someone WANTS advice it's fine, but most people don't.

Well from my experience, I always tell people nicely, and it usually goes smoothly, I'd say, 80% of the time with green sprouts.
Only will mentor have a hard time accepting their errors - to a point where I don't even tell them anymore, except if they are tanking and not managing at all.
Oh, I had to tell you this too, but ever since I macroed (Protect) /pplease, I get instant protect every time healer forgets to, so catgirl winks work !
I really do think communication is essential.
And I emphasize on the point that you really need to pay attention on how things are said and who you're telling it to.
For example, if you start advising nicely someone, but then end with a tiny sarcastic note, it can break everything you've said.
This is part of my everyday irl work, that's why I can assure you this is true.

This is actually the literal definition of carried. Try not to get hung up on negative connotations and feelings and look at it objectively. If you do not have the necessary throughput the game dictates (barring the isolated examples of min ilvl beginning progression), then you did not do all of the mechanics right. You failed the DPS mechanic.

The thing is that in this case, I could say, if you fail to dodge one aoe, you were carried too...
If you died on the first clear, thus spent 90 second with the rez debuff and most likely failed the dps check, you were carried...
I remember someone criticizing me at the beginning of stormblood, after looking at my log of my first o1s clear, saying I was carried cause I didn't use a single holy spirit... By that time, I was so focused on mechs (and actually hated that new caster rotation...), I also remember our pug barely clearing it... But as MT that time, I really have a hard time understanding how I couldve been carried... I sure was well below average dps at that time (think I pulled something around 2.5K at that time), but as a MT, if I kept on failing and dying, I doubt our pug wouldve gotten its clear. I also remember, no one was above 4K when we cleared. I haven't done much savage raiding in ff, but from what I've done and heard around, dps checks aren't that bad.
That brings us to the fact that you also should take into account in which context you're playing.
Are you in a world first race ?
Then yes, any failure, be it dps check or fight mechanics, will make you a carried player.
But shall you apply those standards as common then 99% of the player base would be carried !
If any player not doing as good as the world first is carried, then next time I'll group, I'll be sure to do my carried player job to its best by jumping off the arena on pull !

I dont want to hurt anyone, but I actually feel like there's a lot of condescending feeling when people point out dps. Even though it may not be the case, that is how most people will feel.

[HyoMinPark]

If raiders would leave without being able to parse, that right there tells me they aren't all that great of players to begin with. If you NEED a third party tool, then perhaps you need to get better at the game. A parser is a crutch used to counter their lack of skill.

I can't even with this post. The sheer amount of ignorance and just...wrongness...of it is astounding.

That's not the purpose of SSS. The purpose of SSS is to test weather or not the rotation you are using is enough to pass the dps checks and contribute to damage in a boss situation.

It's not a new tiers release though and we're talking the O5S dummy. There's very little excuse to not be able to clear it right now, unless you're literally min ilvl (which given FF14's design is exceptionally unlikely).

I may not be the best BRD and I prefer to think I'm at least not trash, but before I cleared God Kefka, I could not reliably kill the V8S dummy on time; several times it had a couple percentages of health left. With only half my BiS. Then I cleared God Kefka no problems. And I like to think I was not carried since I netted a blue on my first clear. It certainly wasn't a rotational problem on my part.

SSS is still a horrible judge of readiness for a given fight.

[KaivaC]

I'm on mobile, so no quoting here, but @kaldea, I'm on monk. I only pull out pld to help tank, but when I'm doing that, dps is not my concern. Same with WAR. We have different views on what a bad player is. To me, being lower skilled is the same as being bad. It's primarily the purpose of me starting this thread.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Well from my experience, I always tell people nicely, and it usually goes smoothly, I'd say, 80% of the time with green sprouts.

I'd probably agree with green sprouts. My success rate may be a good bit lower than 80%, but it's certainly over 50%.

The issue I think though, is what is your experience like in actual end game content? How many times do you offer good advice that is taken well?

Then average the two. That's where I'm getting my insight from.

The thing is that in this case, I could say, if you fail to dodge one aoe, you were carried too...

Context is important here. Did this AOE kill you? Or did it just deal damage? If the AOE killed you and dropped you below equivalency then yes, it would indicate a carry. If you still remained above the threshold then you're fine. For instance, like a complete **** idiot, I went an entire O5S without an Oath on. I still managed an upper 70th percentile (I'm max geared though). I didn't drop below equivalency here because I still maintained enough DPS to carry my weight. It doesn't absolve me of being an idiot though.

If you died on the first clear, thus spent 90 second with the rez debuff and most likely failed the dps check, you were carried...

Again, all relative to equivalency (again the measure of if everyone else played similarly would you have succeeded). As long as you pull your weight you were not carried.

I remember someone criticizing me at the beginning of stormblood, after looking at my log of my first o1s clear, saying I was carried cause I didn't use a single holy spirit... By that time, I was so focused on mechs I also remember our pug barely clearing it... But as MT that time, I really have a hard time understanding how I couldve been carried... I sure was well below average dps at that time (think I pulled something around 2.5K at that time), but as a MT, if I kept on failing and dying,

I dont want to hurt anyone, but I actually feel like there's a lot of condescending feeling when people point out dps. Even though it may not be the case, that is how most people will feel.

• You weren't MT in the fight you're referencing
• You barely outperformed (~130 DPS) the MT (another PLD) despite being in Sword Oath full time and them being in Shield Oath for 93% of the fight
• You died twice
• You pulled 1.8K DPS, not 2.5K

For reference, in an O1S log from the same week I performed nearly 1,400 DPS higher than you.

With all due respect, you were carried. You failed the equivalency test. Please don't treat this as an attack on you personally. That is not my intent. My goal here is simply to make sure that you understand my POV and how I arrived at my conclusion.

I may not be the best BRD and I prefer to think I'm at least not trash, but before I cleared God Kefka, I could not reliably kill the V8S dummy on time; several times it had a couple percentages of health left. With only half my BiS. Then I cleared God Kefka no problems. And I like to think I was not carried since I netted a blue on my first clear. It certainly wasn't a rotational problem on my part.

SSS is still a horrible judge of readiness for a given fight.

I won't deny that SSS is garbage because it is. However, we're specifically citing the O5S (so entry dummy tuned to entry gear).

Looking at your referenced log, you did not fail equivalency, thus you were not carried, but you knew that already.

[Moogly]

With all due respect, you were carried. You failed the equivalency test. Please don't treat this as an attack on you personally. That is not my intent. My goal here is simply to make sure that you understand my POV and how I arrived at my conclusion.

That is your POV though, as I said, for many people, a clear is a clear, no matter how sloppy it was.
To me, "carried" means, like you said, dude pays you guys and then sits in a corner watching you people kill the boss.
If I stayed dead the whole fight - there wouldve been no clear at all.
I think I mostly died on those thunder blows you had to share - if I failed that mech, and let a dps take the blow, there wouldve been no clear also.
I have no static and only pug, so my kills are usually nowhere near the quality of those youtube kills - usually chaotics... but still, boss is ded.

You'll sometimes see some world/server first kills that are really sloppy, with people making mistakes and dying, even sometimes a clear with a healer lb3 in it. Would you still consider the lesser players from those groups as being carried for their world first ? Would those teams kick the lower dps from their roster after each kill ?
A kill is a team work.

Imo having such a binary mindset isn't a good way to handle things. Even if at my level, I am working to get better, then players like KaivaC actively into savage, who are doing their best, are striving to get better and are getting clears : to me, they're not being carried. He doesn't clear sss ? One or two gear update later, he will, so what ?

Also, if such a mindset keeps being the dominant one, more and more people won't stand wiping 2 or 3 times... We all have our own pace at learning things, but if you can't even try more than 2 or 3 times, how do you actually want to improve :s ? And of course, dont forget chat flame wars...

On the other hand, I think only once or twice did I find a group in which we would wipe for 2-3 full timer runs - without a clear.
How did those groups ended ?
"Well too bad"
"Good luck, I hope you'll get it next time"
And so on.

tl;dr, : I think the term "carried" isn't constructive in a "I want to get better" thread