WHM aggro generation needs to be looked at

[Exiled_Tonberry]

It's hard to notice this in most content since nothing really requires you to heal extensively, but I just recently completed O8s and this was a consistent problem with WHM only. They build aggro way too fast and easily.

I know a lot of people like to say that this is to balance out them having constant access to Cure III, but similarly on AST, I was able to use all the tools of my kit and spam aoe heals without any risk and achieve the exact same results as a WHM would have without the risk of killing myself from aggro generation.

I'm not saying it should get a static enmity dampener like AST, but wouldn't something like plenary stacks reducing aggro generation make sense? It just seems abnormal that when you really need to push out the heals, you'll probably end up getting yourself killed without the help of a Ninja or forcing your tank to work overtime.

Just my opinion of course, what do other people think? Would lowering enmity generation make WHM too easy? Is it too uncommon of an issue to even bother fixing?

[Sebazy]

As a habitual 'big hps' healer, I definitely feel where you are coming from, but IMHO it adds to the flavour of the job and frankly is a necessary evil to keep our throughput potential in check to some degree. It's also typically only ever an issue within the first 2 to 3 minutes of an encounter when it is an issue at all, if I pull agro beyond that point, chances are somethings going horridly wrong. A12S was a bit of an outlier with how long the boss was untargetable for but it was rarely an issue that couldn't be worked around there.

In your case in particular, I'd advise your WHM to hold their Lucid Dreaming a little longer. It looks like they are using it on the Ultima just after the first Celestriad. I have better luck using it 15 seconds later just after a Cure III following the first Forsaken. This gives the tanks the biggest head start on enmity without sacrificing my MP too much and means my second Lucid is popping a few moments before the second Forsaken after Trine etc.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

is a necessary evil to keep our throughput potential in check to some degree.

I don't exactly disagree with you here. WHM does need something to keep itself from simply spamming Cure III without care, just like Earthly Star is on a CD and Indom costs aetherflow.

Though usually, this balance is kept in check by Cure III's range and MP cost. I don't think aggro generation should be a part of this at all. This means we have to manage the short distance Cure III naturally has, MP cost and aggro generation all at once. It just seems excessive imo. And of course, aggro generation isn't usually a problem, so to me it seems like it could be something unintentional.

I can't remember the exact circumstances, but when AST had similar aggro issues, they were immediately given a way to control this better. It does make me feel like they never intended for healers to fight against the aggro bar so much like this.

[ManuelBravo]

Hmmm Not sure if agree if your having enmity problems as a whm normally means TANK is having issues keeping enmity, or might be a communication or group may not be using support action on whm properly ( rarely needed unless whm outclasses enmity generation by group. ) If Nin in group could use smoke screen on whm to help or whm can use Lucid dreaming to help lower enmity. As a healer I get support when I'm overtaking enmity so can try communicating with group for assistance.

[Risvertasashi]

Hmmm Not sure if agree if your having enmity problems as a whm normally means TANK is having issues keeping enmity, or might be a communication or group may not be using support action on whm properly ( rarely needed unless whm outclasses enmity generation by group. ) If Nin in group could use smoke screen on whm to help or whm can use Lucid dreaming to help lower enmity. As a healer I get support when I'm overtaking enmity so can try communicating with group for assistance.

If tanks would stay in tank stance and spam their aggro combo, it's true, nothing would ever rip enmity from them. But it's also, you know, just not reality. Tanks need to optimize like everyone else. Not every group has a ninja.

In most fights, DPS seem to be in more danger of stealing threat than healers. But o8s is another game altogether. You can use Lucid right before first Forsaken and seemingly give the tanks a nice lead on enmity... but by the end of that Forsaken (or during it if you're not careful), you'll be a pixel behind the tanks and in danger of stealing threat yet again. And, o8s being o8s, there's just going to be more and more to heal...

[Ghishlain]

I can't remember the exact circumstances, but when AST had similar aggro issues, they were immediately given a way to control this better. It does make me feel like they never intended for healers to fight against the aggro bar so much like this.

When AST got it's first potency buff, enmity started to become and issue because it had matching potencies to WHM. At that time, ASTs MP equivalent to Shroud of Saints also reduced the enmity generation of their actions (similar to Diversion / Quelling Strikes) and was not an enmity dump like Shroud of Saints was. This meant that the AST would have to save Luminious Aether for phases of heavy healing to help reduce their aggro, but it would also mean they're saving an MP tool for situations where they might not need the MP back at the time / end up losing a few ticks since they hadn't casted enough AoE heals yet at that juncture. Also if heavy spike healing phases occured between the two minute cooldown of Luminious Aether, the AST was SoL in trying to regulate their enmity while dealing with these phases.

S-E's solution to this enmity issue at the time was to include a passive enmity reduction trait to the AST sects. However with 4.0, AST got access to an enmity dump via Lucid Dreaming - leading to the current enmity situation with AST since they never removed the sect's passive enmity reduction when SB was launched.

[Sebazy]

S-E's solution to this enmity issue at the time was to include a passive enmity reduction trait to the AST sects. However with 4.0, AST got access to an enmity dump via Lucid Dreaming - leading to the current enmity situation with AST since they never removed the sect's passive enmity reduction when SB was launched.

This is further compounded by Earthly Star being considered a pet as far as enmity goes (if I'm not mistaken?)

[Exiled_Tonberry]

S-E's solution to this enmity issue at the time was to include a passive enmity reduction trait to the AST sects. However with 4.0, AST got access to an enmity dump via Lucid Dreaming - leading to the current enmity situation with AST since they never removed the sect's passive enmity reduction when SB was launched.

Hmm, so it's basically something that was either overlooked or not deemed important enough to fix. That's interesting. I wouldn't go as far as to call this Imbalanced or anything, but requiring a Nin or the tank to do more aggro combos than normal to make up for a WHM being in the party is not very good.

If this was indeed intentional design and AST is just the exception then that's fine, it just doesn't look that way right now.

[NotADps]

Not every group has a ninja.

on my group even with shade, shirk and smoke(right before forsaken) there have been times our whm got aggro just before trine... its just v8s forces you to top ppl off for the heartless archangel twice and sometimes ppl get 1k or even less hp missing and that forces healers to use another heal or risk having some1 die due to not beeing topped off.

[Kabooa]

That tank could just do an extra aggro combo at the start, no?