Black magic...kinda sucks

[Malkria]

How can you tell who's proficient at Black Mage? You take the aggregate data available and look at who does the best of them. Most actions taken, most damage dealt, most uptime, least damage taken, amount of single buffs received, etc.

So what you are trying to say is that unless I am topping the charts with whatever parser then apparently I am not 'proficient' and thus can't judge the job or any of it's issues? Despite the fact that A) pasrsers are against the game's ToS, and B) that isn't true. You can understand a job, examine a job, and find fault with a job all without needing to top any sort of parser. That literally has NOTHING to do with juding if someone has an understanding a job...well unless you are one of those people who judge others based on parsers but, again, that would be breaching the ToS and basically making you a jerk.

YoshiP has said in interviews that BLM is meant to be a complex job. It's the one he plays and he said specifically he doesn't want it overly simplified. And that's fine. We have lots of jobs specifically so we can have different play styles and different levels of complexity. BLM is on the higher end.

Which is fine...where did I say I want the job made simpler? My having an issue with aspects of the job has never led to me asking for the job to be made simpler, and in fact the ideas I presented to "fix" the issues I have were specifically in mind to preserver the turret mentality of the job. I have no issues with the fire and ice mechanic or the cast times in and of themselves, it's mainly around the timer and how that directly relates to mobility, which both in my eyes could be done in a much more natural feeling way WITHOUT sacrificing the BLM's identity or the major turret play style people like about it.

Also...is this a complex or simple job? Because the reigning mentality is that this is supposed to be a very straightforwards and "simple" turret style DPS job.

So who do you trust for understanding the game design? Because you do not seem to agree with anyone here.

Well off the bat, the people who don't lead off with "you just don't understand the nuances of the job"...because yes I get that it's a turret job. That was NEVER in question. The issue I take with the job is in the execution of said game-play style and how it well it meshes, or doesn't, with the overall game. Thing is, yes the job is 100% playable and I have never argued that. But what I have stated is that the job could be done in a way that keeps the turret gameplay while still keeping the job as mobile as the game demands most of the time.

My biggest issue is that again the job relies on momentum so much, which is fine, but then uses a timer that just stops the DPS when it runs out...and to me that isn't fine. As supposedly Yoshi wants, this job could stand to have a little more ACTUAL nuance with how it built up power. Such as getting faster at casting and/or more power the longer you stay in a spot. But by making it all about a timer, and moving between GCD ticks, not only does it make the job feel janky to play but it is in contrast to how every other job simply moves when needed to avoid mechanics. Which again while it does make the BLM "unique" it also puts it in start contrast unnecessarily when better mechanic options exist and have been done.

[Kabooa]

Yep. I'm saying proficiency isn't given because the number next to your name is 70. It's earned.

It is one of the most well oiled DPS jobs currently available, and nearly completely self sufficient. It depends on no one for its performance, and literally everything else they do get is considered a bonus.

It is engaging. It is masked by a layer of simplicity for the mastery required on a fight by fight basis, and rewarded properly for doing so.

Just because you haven't gotten to that point yet doesn't make it the job's fault. You have been given every tool you need to succeed.

[P_Wing]

So what you are trying to say is that unless I am topping the charts with whatever parser then apparently I am not 'proficient' and thus can't judge the job or any of it's issues?

I think there are issues that is gone with enough practice, and issues that cannot be solved by practicing (like BLM lacking party buffs, etc).
Your issues are the former, and it doesn't mean it shouldn't be solved. Because they will make entry to the class easier and probably more people will play the class. That's fine on its own.

However, knowing SE, people here knows that if they buff the AF/UI timers like you said, BLM's damage would be nerfed in exchange for that buff.
Therefore, people who doesn't have issues with the timers in the first place would not want that.

That's behind the reason why we have been saying that it's not the real issues here. We can't get all the convenient buffs in the world without trading something for it.

[Mhaeric]

Can you point to the official line that describes the BLM as a 'turret job'?

The simple fact that the casting times of multiple rotation staple Black Mage spells are longer than the GCD when other jobs have at most one or two occasional abilities like this, if even any.

[Remyogic]

So what you are trying to say is that unless I am topping the charts with whatever parser then apparently I am not 'proficient' and thus can't judge the job or any of it's issues? Despite the fact that A) pasrsers are against the game's ToS, and B) that isn't true. You can understand a job, examine a job, and find fault with a job all without needing to top any sort of parser. That literally has NOTHING to do with juding if someone has an understanding a job...well unless you are one of those people who judge others based on parsers but, again, that would be breaching the ToS and basically making you a jerk.

Your statement is confusing...........So you're saying that judging your damage output in a damage dealing job against the average of your peers output in the same job is not a fair appraisal of proficiency in said job? How else would you measure proficiency?

Understanding a job DOES NOT equal being proficient at execution of said job. That's like saying the 50 year old 400lb guy that never leaves his couchis a better Basketball player than Michael Jordan because he can site everything there is to know about basketball.

What people keep trying to point out to you is not whether or not you UNDERSTAND the job, it is that it is impossible to competently judge the job until you are PROFICIENT at it; and that the complaints you have raised are issues due to a lack of proficiency.

[Remyogic]

But what I have stated is that the job could be done in a way that keeps the turret gameplay while still keeping the job as mobile as the game demands most of the time.

tur·ret
ˈtərət/Submit
noun
noun: turret; plural noun: turrets; noun: turret shell; plural noun: turret shells
1.
a small tower on top of a larger tower or at the corner of a building or wall, typically of a castle.
a low, flat armored gun emplacement, typically one that revolves, in a ship, aircraft, fort, or tank.

This is where you lose people and credibility that you understand the job. Please explain to me where any of that definition sounds like a Turret is mobile. A turret is a fixed position damage weapon.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

As for the victim card, I went 7 pages before I corrected anyone, but because I have now suddenly I am playing the victim because I got tired of everyone reffering me to a he? Right...or is it because the implication is that talking to a woman as so many of you have is somehow worse then talking to a guy, and now that I revealed I am a woman you are trying to cover your arse?

People are accusing you of playing the victim for remarks like this...

Wow...no you know what, I don't care anymore. That is all any of you have said, despite not being able to respond with more "well you just move during GCD", which is exactly what using swift and triple cast is about. What exactly am I not understanding? So since that seems to be all anyone can say, continuing to respond and explain myself, only to be told what I am thinking or feeling, is just continued masochism on my part. But now, after being tired of being told I am a 'he' I guess I'm playing the victim card by pointing out that I am a woman.

Like I said, shout down long enough until the dissenter goes away. So good game "guys", guess that means you win. 9.9

I must just be a random silly girl who dared question the community and not like their beloved job and so uppity as to call out the fact that it really could have been done better. Or since everyone was assuming I was a guy, just some random bloke who just couldn't wrap his head around a three button combo.

So sorry I am 'offended' by a bunch of dudes who apparently like to tell me what I was thinking or feeling when I made the post or how stupid I am for 'just not getting' the BLM job. After a few days of having a group of people talk down to you, I imagine getting a little terse would be natural for anyone. If you don't like that, oh well. I would say maybe treat the next person better, but that won't happen because you all are "right" and I am "wrong" because reasons. 9.9

Silly me, guess I better get going before someone tells me to get back in the kitchen or some other stupid shit next.

You have abruptly made everyone's disagreement of your opinion all about your gender. Had you simply corrected someone with an innocuous "she*" or "Btw, I'm she not he." We wouldn't be having this discussion. No one cares whether you are male or female. We simply don't agree with your ideas for Black Mage. Forums are meant to have opposing discussions. If you cannot handle criticism or disagreement, go back to your 50 person FC. They, apparently, share your stance.

[Mahrze]

Had you simply corrected someone with an innocuous "she*" or "Btw, I'm she not he." We wouldn't be having this discussion.

And for something deemed so irrelevant, its still goes on.

[Malkria]

What people keep trying to point out to you is not whether or not you UNDERSTAND the job, it is that it is impossible to competently judge the job until you are PROFICIENT at it; and that the complaints you have raised are issues due to a lack of proficiency.

Again by that logic we shouldn't have reviews, commentators, or critics who were not first top of the line in whatever they are talking about. That obviously is not the case, and therefore YES you can judge something if you have an actual understanding of it without being a top tier player fist.

Please explain to me where any of that definition sounds like a Turret is mobile. A turret is a fixed position damage weapon.

Um...ships, tanks, and whatever else a turret can be MOUNTED on let alone fired while on the move? Or do all those things need to stop for the turret to be used? In fact here is proof positive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3iRvDzF_w

So your point about turrets having to be stationary was what again? Because while I am all for rewarding staying stationary, it doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be able to move when necessary to avoid mechanics.

You have abruptly made everyone's disagreement of your opinion all about your gender. Had you simply corrected someone with an innocuous "she*" or "Btw, I'm she not he." We wouldn't be having this discussion. No one cares whether you are male or female. We simply don't agree with your ideas for Black Mage. Forums are meant to have opposing discussions. If you cannot handle criticism or disagreement, go back to your 50 person FC. They, apparently, share your stance.

Which is a trap, because no matter HOW I pointed it out, people would have accused me of making an issue over my gender. So I let it go until finally the frustration got the better of me over having to repeat myself. Which is funny, since as much you say I was playing a victim...the tone of responding posts HAS shifted since I stated I was a woman. Imagine that.

That's behind the reason why we have been saying that it's not the real issues here. We can't get all the convenient buffs in the world without trading something for it.

Thank you for actually putting some thought into your post, it's a breath of fresh air. So to start lets examine your statement, your logic in that if they buff the timer then they have to nerf the damage is fair but isn't the only way they could change it. As I stated they could combine the ley line ability into a mechanic that the longer you stay in an area the faster you cat. While this might necessitate a slight nerf since in theory you could be casting faster longer then you could otherwise, it still would be in keeping with the 'turret' play style while also giving a very natural reason to stay in one spot. The only thing the timer does as it is now is A) push players to keep momentum, and B) encourage good placement where you can focus on rotation. However one feels much more natural to simply playing the game vs keeping a constant eye on an arbitrary timer.

The core issue here for me is that it doesn't matter how good I get with the job, the job doesn't feel good to play because of that timer. Even worse, I have seen similar jobs where you are encouraged to build momentum by staying still or by simply playing better. In this case though it's all about keeping a timer going...and that isn't fun, and even worse there are better and more elegant ways to do everything the timer is trying to push players to do in ways that feel more natural to simply playing the job. The timer itself isn't even really an issue until you are trying to squeeze spells in that don't refresh it, which can be compounded in team play when you were counting on a spell to refresh the timer so you can keep killing mobs...but the mob died and you don't have time to hit transpose even to sorta keep the momentum going. Even if you can quickly get the buff and rhythm going again, it is a very clear and obvious wall you hit every time it happens that just disrupts the flow of the game.

THAT is the crux of my argument. Yes you can get around it, and even succeed as the job, but it doesn't change that the timer is both a distracting element and something that breaks the flow of the game is such a brutal manner unnecessarily when better mechanic options exist to make the job feel more natural.

[Remyogic]

Again by that logic we shouldn't have reviews, commentators, or critics who were not first top of the line in whatever they are talking about. That obviously is not the case, and therefore YES you can judge something if you have an actual understanding of it without being a top tier player fist.

Except that reviewers, commentators and critics typically DO have quite an extensive background in whatever field they are operating in and generally only give HIGH level opinions like: "Black Mage is not fun to play" not "Black Mage sucks, here are the specifics why, and this is the only way to fix it". So NO. Your point does not hold logic.

Um...ships, tanks, and whatever else a turret can be MOUNTED on let alone fired while on the move? Or do all those things need to stop for the turret to be used? In fact here is proof positive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF3iRvDzF_w

So your point about turrets having to be stationary was what again? Because while I am all for rewarding staying stationary, it doesn't mean that the job shouldn't be able to move when necessary to avoid mechanics.

The TURRET is not mobile, it is mounted on a mobile object. The TURRET cannot go ANYWHERE without the object it is mounted on, hence it is an fixed position, immobile piece of equipment. EXACTLY what mobile object is a Black Mage (aka TURRET) mounted on? SO to clarify my point on Turrets is that they are stationary damage weapons. I can guarantee you that if you were in a fire-fight and told someone to go get you the Turret, you'd get the biggest "are you an idiot" look ever.

Which is a trap, because no matter HOW I pointed it out, people would have accused me of making an issue over my gender. So I let it go until finally the frustration got the better of me over having to repeat myself. Which is funny, since as much you say I was playing a victim...the tone of responding posts HAS shifted since I stated I was a woman. Imagine that.

Nah, the tone of responses changed once you went all SJW on this thread and started accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you as a Misogynist. You yourself changed the tone.