Black magic...kinda sucks

[P_Wing]

Moving during GCD is yes an option...but it isn't actual mobility it's simply moving in stutters during GCD.

I thought I wasn't gonna reply more to OP but this sentence tickles me. It seems like you really did not understand the core of BLM. BLM is about moving as little as we can, we only need to dodge AoEs which can be easily done with 1 GCD, therefore swiftcast / firestarter proc and thunder proc is more than enough for that.

True mobility is being able to move AS NEEDED WHEN NEEDED without losing to much momentum of the job, which is the core mechanic of this job.

True mobility is not the core of BLM's job, actually it's the farthest concept for BLM. We can always move "when needed" but not "as needed".
Even red mage, summoner and healers need some casts and need to be immobile for certain spells. The only truly mobile class is bard and machinist. You should probably try them instead.

[Malkria]

I didn't even realize that you had responded. What I said are not ways to work around the job - those are things you should be doing in order to effectively play the job. I toyed a little with it after my post in PotD, just to see if your concerns were valid. Granted, PotD is not exactly the best way to use it, but my BLM is in the 30s, so I jumped in to see what a lvl 60 BLM feels like. I am not convinced that the problems are nearly as bad as you are suggesting. In fact, beacuse of you, I now have a bigger interest in BLM. BLMs do not need the mobility that you are suggesting. What you want is a mobile turret. This is not WoW. Again, I have to say, if you feel like you're struggling with this in higher levels, then you are not playing the job correctly. The job shines best when you know the fight and knew when you can and cannot execute certain actions.

...So because PoTD is as easy as it is, with almost no mechanics, my concerns are not validated in your eyes. Sure, because as you said PoTD is such a great way to judge a job's faults. MAYBE if you were doing it solo I would consider it a more fair opinion, but like I said in the opening post once you get past 60 you really can't be 'over geared' and the issues of the job become more apparent.

Furthermore, yes your suggestion is a workaround. Yes it is how people play the class, but it doesn't change the core issue the job has, and that being it's actually a fairly bad design for what it is trying to do.

True mobility is not the core of BLM's job, actually it's the farthest concept for BLM. We can always move "when needed" but not "as needed".
Even red mage, summoner and healers need some casts and need to be immobile for certain spells. The only truly mobile class is bard and machinist. You should probably try them instead.

You ALMOST got my point...and then you kept going. I'm not sure if it is me not explaining this properly or if my audience is in such a fervor to defend this job they can't think past their prejudices. Much like the one post which actually though I was suggesting having the orbs constantly decaying every three seconds.

The concept of the BLM isn't actually to BE a turret, that is how most people PLAY it. The concept, the CORE concept, is momentum. Keeping up the cycle to put out as much damage as possible while on the cycle between fire and ice. The problem being that this momentum far to easily is lost much in the same way as a runner tripping over a crack; and whether from lag, mechanics, or simply being "someone who hasn't memorized the fight" there are a LOT of cracks to interrupt this momentum. Like I said before, having a mechanic that the longer you stay put the faster you cast in a similar way to the MNK building up greased lighting by attacking...the more a turret play style is achieved in a much more organic way. The core concept is NOT about being a turret it's about keeping that momentum and thus high DPS going, and that does not necessarily translate to the current way BLM plays as being the best way to have the job run.

It also does NOT necessarily mean that the stutter movement that is being so heavily praised fits well with the mechanics of the game. Because while you can argue this comes from knowing the game well, the same argument can be made for using bugs and exploits to do things you shouldn't be able to do. Just because both examples exist, does not mean that the elements are good, balanced, or fun. Yes you can play around them, you can plan for them, you can even master them...but that still doesn't mean it's a good design.

The core of the BLM is rewarding you to standing your ground and keeping a good momentum going, and while you can define this as being 'a turret' it still doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to move when needed without fearing your DPS is going to slam into a brick wall. Casters have cast times, great point. But that still doesn't preclude that the BLM could have both a design that allows more natural mobility without sacrificing the rewards to staying in one place to do it's DPS. The mechanic I just explained being one of only a multitude of possible ways this could be done with a BETTER DESIGN.

[Rongway]

The concept of the BLM isn't actually to BE a turret

The thing is

this is exactly the point of BLM.

BLM is about all the splodies, the cost of which is the requirement that you stand in one spot for most of the fight. BLM is a turret first, given multiple abilities with "Additional effect: Ignores mechanics." to deal with times that it is forced to move.

[Malkria]

The thing is

this is exactly the point of BLM.

BLM is about all the splodies, the cost of which is the requirement that you stand in one spot for most of the fight. BLM is a turret first, given multiple abilities with "Additional effect: Ignores mechanics." to deal with times that it is forced to move.

....So yet again you are either skipping over the point, or ignoring it.

No the core isn't about being a turret more then it's about the momentum; and the 'turret play style' is a byproduct, a symptom, but not the core design itself. If you can still have everything 'explody' about the BLM whether you use the current system or the hypothetical suggestion I made....then no the core design is NOT about being a turret. You can still have a system that rewards staying in one spot and putting out damage while at the same time granting the flexibility to move as necessary. So once again, being a turret is NOT the core of the BLM job, it's about keeping up the momentum of damage. To which, again, you can have both that core and mobility while you enjoy your cake.

[P_Wing]

It seems you insist we didn't listen to you while we didn't really understand the problem you're having, so I propose a solution so we'll reach the same page of your purpose of this thread.

You should record a session of your dungeon run and point out which is the problem you would like to change?
Because I'm wondering why you want to always be moving. (In my feeling, the monsters/bosses stay still at the tank anyway so we can freely shoot without moving)

[Popotato]

....So yet again you are either skipping over the point, or ignoring it.

God, I wish I could be naive enough to blatantly skip over other people's points and then claim I'm being ignored.

I think the crux of this entire thread is that OP finds BLM challenging and hard to pick up and execute on immediately, which is fine. Everyone's going to suck at a job that's new for them. However, rather than blaming their failure on his own shortcomings and inexperience, he instead blames his failures on the job itself, and the game system. It's the craftsman blaming his tools.

He thinks BLM timers hard to maintain. That's his own shortcoming.

He thinks BLM doesn't have the tools it needs to execute mechanics efficiently. That's his own shortcomings.

He thinks BLM's core design doesn't fit into this game. That's his own shortcomings.

One thing is clear amongst all these, and it's that OP just doesn't want challenge. He finds success fun and failure boring, but doesn't want to work hard to find that success. No one is saying BLM is an easy job. It has an easy rotation, but it's hard to apply to fights. That's the challenge of the job. Not every job has to be pick up and play easy. In fact, most jobs aren't that way. But when the job presents even the slightest amount of challenge, rather than overcoming the challenge and enjoying the satisfaction of knowing you became a better player, a defeatist attitude is adopted instead. I think that's why he fails to see BLM from an end game perspective like the rest of us.

OP is so adamant on his own misinformed opinions that he instead chooses to ignore valid points, and just pick out the responses that he thinks he can procure a deluded answer to. I don't see how you can get your point through.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

....So yet again you are either skipping over the point, or ignoring it.

No the core isn't about being a turret more then it's about the momentum; and the 'turret play style' is a byproduct, a symptom, but not the core design itself. If you can still have everything 'explody' about the BLM whether you use the current system or the hypothetical suggestion I made....then no the core design is NOT about being a turret. You can still have a system that rewards staying in one spot and putting out damage while at the same time granting the flexibility to move as necessary. So once again, being a turret is NOT the core of the BLM job, it's about keeping up the momentum of damage. To which, again, you can have both that core and mobility while you enjoy your cake.

You mean the system which already exists? Aetherial Manipulation, Between the Lines, Triplecast and Swiftcast allow for near instantaneous movement. Additionally, you can use Firestarter procs to move without losing damage. If all else fails, Scathe remains a lost resort option. Your preceding comparison with Monk would make Black Mage stupidly overpowered. On a 2.4 GCD, Greased Lightning III reduces it to 2.04. It wouldn't be unfathomable for Black Mage to broach a <2.0 GCD with a similar mechanic and enough Spell Speed, thus negating any challenge the job has whatsoever. You wouldn't need any of the aforementioned abilities, you'd simply be able to run away flinging spells with virtually no hindrance. What you're proposing is an entirely new job mechanic, not an improvement.

[Malkria]

You mean the system which already exist? Aetherial Manipulation, Between the Lines, Triplecast and Swiftcast allow for near instantaneous movement. Additionally, you can use Firestarter procs to move without losing damage. If all else fails, Scathe remains a lost resort option. Your preceding comparison with Monk would make Black Mage stupidly overpowered. On a 2.4 GCD, Greased Lightning III reduces it to 2.04. It wouldn't be unfathomable for Black Mage to broach a <2.0 GCD with a similar mechanic and enough Spell Speed, thus negating any challenge the job has whatsoever. You wouldn't need any of the aforementioned abilities, you'd simply be able to run away flinging spells with virtually no hindrance. What you're proposing is an entirely new job mechanic, not an improvement.

The MNK comparison was meant as an idea to get the concept across, because of course blindly translating greased lighting to the BLM would be stupid. Sorry, I keep forgetting putting forth alternative mechanic ideas on the internet in any game I should have fully developed, tested, and gotten feedback from three major game makers before I can put forth ideas. Thank goodness I didn't go with my original comparison to the striker gear set from the division, or I would have had people pointing out this isn't a shooter to me.

Furthermore aetherial manipulation requires you stop, locate a team member, and select them to use it. Ley lines and between the lines can only be used as often as you can have ley lines active. Swift and triple cast would only really shine for movement once you know the fight well enough to anticipate...which again makes the job less flexible if you are doing new content far behind other jobs. To which you, and others, are saying the optimal way to play the BLM is only when you have played everything else to get it on farm. Because otherwise if you go into new content with a BLM...you will be at a distinct disadvantage to other DPS classes. Because 'knowing a fight well' comes AFTER playing content and/or watching other people play content.

BLM is a turret. Like it or not, that's the job. You have one of the easiest rotations because the challenge of this job is about adapting it to the fight. It's a unique playstyle to this game, and it's completely perfect the way it is.

Which is why it had to be 'dumbed down' once already? Because it was perfect the way it was?

[KaivaC]

...So because PoTD is as easy as it is, with almost no mechanics, my concerns are not validated in your eyes. Sure, because as you said PoTD is such a great way to judge a job's faults. MAYBE if you were doing it solo I would consider it a more fair opinion, but like I said in the opening post once you get past 60 you really can't be 'over geared' and the issues of the job become more apparent.

Furthermore, yes your suggestion is a workaround. Yes it is how people play the class, but it doesn't change the core issue the job has, and that being it's actually a fairly bad design for what it is trying to do.

Well...yeah, your key concern about movement is not validated in my eyes, yeah. I've seen BLMs who perform exceptionally well...to the point that they are consistently top DPS in movement heavy fights such as Jade Stoa and its Ex fight (which is the latest). You have an AST at level 70, so what do you mean you can't be overgeared? You can easily farm for gear on a healer in the appropriate level dungeons because DPS queues are terrible. You pick up the tools needed to shine in your job when you finish your 70 job quest. You're wanting BLM to be a job that it's not meant to be. And as mentioned many pages back, BLMs have the kit for when they do need to move. You're literal job is to sit there and unleash powerful magic. You have your procs and triplecast amongst other abilities to do what you need to succeed.

Honestly, it sounds like this is not the job for you. You'd be better off with a SMN if you want the kind of mobility you want while dishing out high level damage. If you want a caster with the most mobility, it's either SMN or RDM. BLM is fine as its intended role as a turret.

[Malkria]

God, I wish I could be naive enough to blatantly skip over other people's points and then claim I'm being ignored.

Oh how I wish I could just put words into other people's mouths and find deeper meaning in their actions then what they state, despite what they keep saying over and over.

Honestly, it sounds like this is not the job for you. You'd be better off with a SMN if you want the kind of mobility you want while dishing out high level damage. If you want a caster with the most mobility, it's either SMN or RDM. BLM is fine as its intended role as a turret.

First off when I make posts like this it isn't just my own viewpoint I am coming from, and when I make suggestions to changes I try to think how best to do it in a way that preserves the mastery of a job/class. I do this for any game I have suggestions for, and frankly I find it so laughable that everyone seems to know how badly I hate the turret playstyle but me.

Second, like I said, the core of the BLM is momentem, not being a turret. The core of the BLM is:

-Heavy direct DPS with long cast times
-The depletion and refilling of the MP bar (the fire and ice cycle)

The fact that you tend to stay still for those cast times is a side effect, and the only spell that actually tells you to stay in one spot is Ley lines. So does that mean that WHM is a melee caster since both holy and assize need to be cast at melee range? Even then, you can keep the turret aspect in a much better fashion such as with the example I hypothesized on. This means that you could easily not only condense a few of the aspects you like into the actuam mechanics of the job, but this in turn would allow other abilities to be added that might make the job more interesting to play as well. As currently, the job is all about the various levels of fire and ice which leaves the AoE version of said spells kind of lacking.

So no, I don't hate the turret aspect, for all that is good please stop saying that; it's just I strongly feel that the turret aspect AS IT IS NOW does not mesh with the game well AS IT IS NOW. Is the job playable? Yes. Can you make it work? Yes. But neither of those things preclude that the job is well designed or meshes well. Period.