Jobs: unconnected and now feeling flat

**Malkria** · 05-07-2018 05:52 PM

I started back about half a year before Stormblood was going to hit. So I recall the need to level other classes for certain abilities and to unlock the more advanced jobs. While on one hand I get where this fell short, such as necessity actions like the gladiator's provoke or healer's cleric stance. But at the same time, I liked that things I did on other jobs made my 'main' stronger. That my character was taking knowledge from other jobs and becoming more powerful as a whole.
But now I feel like role actions and such we lost that feeling. I don't feel like I am really earning anything extra if my white mage is my main and I go spend time leveling my black mage. I have leveled a few jobs since Stormblood and honestly I feel like while it is easier to jump in and level jobs compared to before that feeling that your character is benefiting from spending time in other jobs has since been lost.

I strongly feel that the main draw from the job system in previous final fantasy games has been that your character is shaped by the jobs and time invested in said jobs to make the overall character more powerful. Such as in tactics where a caster spent time as a squire to learn how to use shields, or a knight having had archer experience can charge for a stronger attack. While I know we can't have anything quite so free form in this game, the point is that now our avatars feel more like paper-dolls with abilities and less like characters built from the time players spent investing in various jobs.

One simple idea I've had is having 'traits' you unlock at level 50, 60, and 70 that you can equip for small bonuses. Such as a trait from a scholar that makes the cooldown of shield spells/abilities slightly shorter. Or having critical hits with an astrologian trait give a minor random version of one of their cards. Just minor effects that you can unlock and take activate a certain amount of as you play various jobs; that overall can let you fine tune your character and reward you for investing in various said jobs.

But it doesn't have to be that. However I again strongly feel that we should have some form of interaction between various jobs correlating to our experience spent in them. That without it, it all just feels much flatter then what we had before.

**Rowde** · 05-08-2018 01:27 AM

I agree, but I also understand why they made the change to Role Actions. In the interest of enticing new players to join the game, having certain skills that were pretty much required locked behind other jobs than what that player wanted to play was massive time investment which might have deterred some from wanting to even play. The changes streamlined that so that all jobs could be more accessible to new players.

While I would welcome some kind of cross-classing again... balancing would have to be absolutely on point. If any trait was powerful enough to be considered "mandatory" by the general population, then it creates the original issue all over again. Worse if it was level 70 trait. "Oh you want to play JobA effectively at end game? Well first you need to level JobB to 70 and JobC to 60 for the traits, don't even bother queuing without them."

Which means none of the traits could be a flat adjustment, they'd all have to be attached to some severe RNG.

**Malkria** · 05-08-2018 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Rowde

Which means none of the traits could be a flat adjustment, they'd all have to be attached to some severe RNG.

Which again is why I understand the 'streamlining' of putting the major actions for classes into a pool you just unlocked as you leveled up, and why they are available regardless of level sync. That said, again the point is that before you unlocked things that made investing time into another class rewarding even if you didn't like that class. Such as me getting a damage boosting ability for my black mage even though I really don't care for the archer (though machinest is fine with me for some reason).

In my mind an example of a trait might be the AST one I mentioned; and it would be a chance off every critical, with a 5% buff lasting for 10 seconds. This buff would however override any AST's card that gets played...or simply not activate while said card is active (personally for simplicity I say the latter). So say a crit heavy class like the ninja could benefit from this perk, but it would be random and nothing that could be predicted. Much like how an astrolgican's buffs are heavily RNG based, and it is really only the additional skills that the AST gets that makes said RNG actually usable with an intent.

As for the community, we are also talking about a community that requires parsers (even if 'officially' you aren't supposed to use them), having every single crafting maxed just so you can repair your gear in the field, and who require people to know a fight before bothering to que for it the first time. At least in my bad experiences. There is a difference between having minor traits that do things like shave a few seconds off a single ability (like say a theoretical scholar trait) vs an entire ability that allows a job to funtion to community 'expectations' (such as the scholar and whether or not they can do damage by having 'cleric stance'). But that would be going into dangerous territory with many dead horses like whether it's right to demand healers heal or not. The point being, regardless of HOW we get any such cross job boosts I feel that there should be some tangible benefit to other jobs you have for having put time into leveling jobs.

Does that mean that the newbie with only one job maxed out will have slightly less power then a longer term player? Sure, but the same case can be argued for the long term player having more jobs to be flexible to party needs, having more resources, more stuff unlocked, and even just the ability to repair their gear in the field. There is a difference between a min-maxer vet cutting edge player vs the average player who would just get a little tangible reward for trying other classes.

Originally Posted by Legion88

The problem i see with this is that it would be at least mandatory to have at least every "cross class trait slot" filled.
And this perhaps/most likely will return us just to the cross class skills of the past, when every physical DPS had to level DRG just for "Invigorate" and "Blood for Blood" or every caster had to level BLM for "Swiftcast" for example.

Again there is a difference between having a trait that gives a SMALL bonus vs an ability that changes how a class functions. Furthermore I would point out that swift cast is only 'mandatory' for healers largely due to it being coupled with raise. Which if everything goes right shouldn't be needed in a battle; and having the pressure to 'hard cast' the spell replicates needing two party members in the older games to both cast the spell and then use a potion or another spell to bring a character back from having only one hit point. It makes a healer's job vastly easier, but it isn't 'mandatory' to do their job or function. Unlike say cleric stance where a scholar or astrologican couldn't even do open world content without a DPS focused companion because their output would be so low due to their stat distribution. Either way, the way role actions are more or less standardized with must have actions with others not even being really situational most of the time....not much has changed on that front if we are honest.

Now all of that aside, these are minor traits that in theory should be at best a 10% buff to a character overall. Just minor things like say the scholar shield perk shaving a few seconds off damage reducing abilities such as the black mages manaward or more tactically a paladin's array of damage reducing abilities. Now you could go the route of having traits restricted by either war or magic schools or even by damage type (such as by melee vs ranged physical dps). But at most I feel there should only be three traits with my idea, and having each class' traits follow a theme as well as having direct benifit to the job they come from. That way not only do you have three traits to fill your trait slots with, but you also get a reward for 'mastering' a job. Furthermore another aspect to balancing things might simply to have it to where you can pick only one trait from the 50 rank, one from the 60, and one from the 70.

As for why traits given at 50, 60, and 70 there is a very pracitcal reason. That is the level the expansions come out at. Which also is when a job goes through a storyline that is significant to the player's character. Simply put, story-wise it makes sense to give a trait at that point since your character has at that point reached a level of mastery of their job. Mechanic wise it also makes sense since a new slot and thus trait can be designed based around said story. Take the AST since I know it best as my main and some theoretical traits. The adore mentioned 'crit card' trait could be it's level 50 perk due to you first learning the card system by then. For the level 60 you can take a more powerful trait that has a 10% chance to occur on a direct hit where any status effects on you are extended, both good AND bad, by five seconds for your experience with time manipulation. Finally for the level 70 perk a direct critical hit could have the chance to reduce all abilities on CD by five seconds due to learning to manipulate fate.

Now all of that sounds really powerful, and I can hear you saying "well that would make leveling the astrolgian absolutely necessary"! But keep in mind that I feel ALL the classes should give some benifit at said levels, and yes I feel the max level should be the most powerful, though keep in mind it's based off both a critical AND a direct hit as well as a chance on top of that to proc. White mage could give a trait to give random heals, tanks could have various defensive or even damage given when damage recieved traits, or even changing the battlefield like having a MCH trait that summons a healing and/or damage boosting station. Is this all to much? Maybe, probably, but the point is that it also would make selecting traits harder then current actions since these are all based of chances and you only get THREE (at least that is how I would do it).

The difference between the current role actions and traits is two fold. One, traits are passives whereas you actions are abilities you use and have control over. So if you are taking a limited slot ability, you probably will take the one that has the most function in the most situations. Passives are simply something that you have no control over other then in this case their selection. Plus if you noticed I put critical (which is relatively frequent), direct hit (which is less common) and then a critical direct hit (least common) for traits to even have a CHANCE to proc. which when all said and done means you not only have something that can just happen but based on stats as I understand them, the most powerful passives still won't be as frequent as you might like.

Finally to wrap this all up, again I am NOT saying this idea is perfect and should be what Square does to "fix" the issue here. But it was mearly put forward as a quick suggestion as a way to make time invested in other classes have more impact. It's not perfect, and if you like it I welcome working with you to make it better. If you don't, please suggest something and maybe we can make that something Square might want to do. Either way, the core intent of this thread is that there needs to be something to make our characters feel more like someone who has or is mastering all these jobs and taking what they learn between jobs.

**Rowde** · 05-08-2018 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by Malkria

The point being, regardless of HOW we get any such cross job boosts I feel that there should be some tangible benefit to other jobs you have for having put time into leveling jobs.

Sure, but the same case can be argued for the long term player having more jobs to be flexible to party needs, having more resources, more stuff unlocked, and even just the ability to repair their gear in the field. There is a difference between a min-maxer vet cutting edge player vs the average player who would just get a little tangible reward for trying other classes.

I mean, that alone is already a huge benefit I think you are completely glossing over. As someone that has all jobs/crafters/gatherers at max, I always augment my queue choices for roulettes based on the "Adventurer in Need" bonus. Which saves me time in some way shape or form in the long run, whether that be the instant and apparent faster queue time to later on down the road when I'm pent-melding gear and have 300+ cracked clusters to derp around with to get whatever materia I want and not have to worry about MB prices or potentially SB'ing gear or farming for gil to buy the materia.

I do the same thing when looking for specific content to join in PF. I get the benefit of joining any party I want and I can adjust my role based on what jobs are already present in the party. I never get locked out of content because all spots available for "my role" are already filled.

Originally Posted by Malkria

Does that mean that the newbie with only one job maxed out will have slightly less power then a longer term player?

Now all of that aside, these are minor traits that in theory should be at best a 10% buff to a character overall.

I don't think you have a proper grasp of what "slightly less power" would need to be at to also be considered end-game friendly and not "mandatory". 10% is freaking huge... they'd almost have to be negligible... like 0.5% to 1%. Which at that point... why even bother, right?

If you are looking for some kind of rewards for leveling other jobs, perhaps you should start thinking along the lines of glamour, minions, mounts. Actually the glamour one could be something interesting since that is a thing I see creep up on the forums all the time. Thinking along the lines of Tactics support abilities like "equip _____(type of armor)". Only in this game it would be "glamour _____(job)". So you could learn traits that allowed you to glamour job-restricted gear on other jobs to make your ultimate fantasy warrior outfit...

**Malkria** · 05-08-2018 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Rowde

If you are looking for some kind of rewards for leveling other jobs, perhaps you should start thinking along the lines of glamour, minions, mounts. Actually the glamour one could be something interesting since that is a thing I see creep up on the forums all the time. Thinking along the lines of Tactics support abilities like "equip _____(type of armor)". Only in this game it would be "glamour _____(job)". So you could learn traits that allowed you to glamour job-restricted gear on other jobs to make your ultimate fantasy warrior outfit...

Like I said the issue I have with the current system is that it feels lesss like I am developing a character and more like I have a paper-doll that I swap out abilities for. In this case rather literally by weapon and soul-stone. While I understand that with the abilities before Stormblood some this was necessity. Like I said, I don't like the archer and the only reason my archer is as leveled as a job as it is currently is due to having to unlock the damage boost for my black mage. I also remember having to level both the archanist and thurmaturge for abilities and to unlock my white mage. So yes, I get both the good and bad of the issue.

Giving cosmetics or unlocking glamours is nice but the meat of my issue is that by separating all the jobs completely the sense I am playing a character who is growing in power is stripped as well. If I learn how to run faster as a ninja, why can't I run faster as a WHM? Which makes even less sense when characters implicitly tell you they are TEACHING you these things, such as the BLM using ley lines.

Yes, I am aware that even if you have every class have equally tempting abilities on all ranks that there will be a meta. Yes I started with saying small bonuses, but halfway through I guess I realized what I am saying now. The best way to negate a meta is to have more viable options then opportunities to take. To get to the same point we have with jobs now, that all jobs are viable and welcome in parties unless you are doing cutting edge content in which case there is a meta to party composition. We currently have 15 jobs, which means potentially 15 traits each tier to choose from If even half of those are viable options for most jobs one way or another, I feel that the inevitable meta would be given less weight by players as a whole.

**Paladinleeds** · 05-08-2018 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Malkria

Yes, I am aware that even if you have every class have equally tempting abilities on all ranks that there will be a meta. -snip- The best way to negate a meta is to have more viable options then opportunities to take.

WoW at least used to have this traits system (dunno if it still does). It's tried time and time again to adjust them to make them more balanced. But there will always be a META and most (not all) groups will very strictly enforce it (like if even one trait is wrong, they will kick you on sight and blacklist you so you can never group with them again). There'd be plenty groups that would enforce a 0.000000000000000001% performance improvement. Even now, despite WHM/SCH/AST being closely balanced (though not equally, as that is impossible without making them the same just different animations), WHM is considered not META and gets excluded from quite a lot of groups in leiu of SCH/AST.

**Legion88** · 05-08-2018 01:51 AM

The problem i see with this is that it would be at least mandatory to have at least every "cross class trait slot" filled.
And this perhaps/most likely will return us just to the cross class skills of the past, when every physical DPS had to level DRG just for "Invigorate" and "Blood for Blood" or every caster had to level BLM for "Swiftcast" for example.

To take the example from OP:

Originally Posted by Malkria

One simple idea I've had is having 'traits' you unlock at level 50, 60, and 70 that you can equip for small bonuses.

This would be "bad", sorry i don't have a better word for this at the moment.
Level 50, 60 and 70 would be to much to level, even if most players will say "it's easy and fast to level".
A "better" and more newcomer freindly aproach would be that the classes/jobs only give like 1 to 2 traits.
The first with level 15 or unlocking the job for the advanced jobs.
The second for unlocking the job or for completing the first level cap they can hit (50 for DRK/MCH/AST and 60 for SAM/RDM).
Further down the road you can place variations or buffed versions of the traits.

I know my idea is not "better" then others just builed apon them and maybe they just offer a different point of view or a new aproach.

**BillyKaplan** · 05-08-2018 02:57 AM

They broke the classes apart because people hated having to level up other classes they didn't enjoy for skills that were required at end-game. Design-wise, that was a bad decision and I'm glad they went back on that. My heart broke every time someone was leveling up THM just to get swiftcast and abandon the class forever more. Let people play what they want and don't force them to play things they don't. It's a game, not an actual job.
I can't even say we lost too much on the lore front since while it makes all the sense in the world for a PLD to have CNJ as a sub-class, they never actually acknowledged any of those things in-game. Everything you needed that came from the other classes can be explained via the Soul Crystals.

**DrWho2010** · 05-08-2018 03:14 AM

Having bonuses attached to traits or levelling up other classes would make those things "required" for end-game. Unless you're at least higher mid-core to hardcore, this would exclude a lot of people and make people resent levelling other jobs they don't want/like to play just to be accepted into end-game activities.

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Jobs: unconnected and now feeling flat