Thread: Jobs: unconnected and now feeling flat

Originally Posted by Rowde

Which means none of the traits could be a flat adjustment, they'd all have to be attached to some severe RNG.

Which again is why I understand the 'streamlining' of putting the major actions for classes into a pool you just unlocked as you leveled up, and why they are available regardless of level sync. That said, again the point is that before you unlocked things that made investing time into another class rewarding even if you didn't like that class. Such as me getting a damage boosting ability for my black mage even though I really don't care for the archer (though machinest is fine with me for some reason).

In my mind an example of a trait might be the AST one I mentioned; and it would be a chance off every critical, with a 5% buff lasting for 10 seconds. This buff would however override any AST's card that gets played...or simply not activate while said card is active (personally for simplicity I say the latter). So say a crit heavy class like the ninja could benefit from this perk, but it would be random and nothing that could be predicted. Much like how an astrolgican's buffs are heavily RNG based, and it is really only the additional skills that the AST gets that makes said RNG actually usable with an intent.

As for the community, we are also talking about a community that requires parsers (even if 'officially' you aren't supposed to use them), having every single crafting maxed just so you can repair your gear in the field, and who require people to know a fight before bothering to que for it the first time. At least in my bad experiences. There is a difference between having minor traits that do things like shave a few seconds off a single ability (like say a theoretical scholar trait) vs an entire ability that allows a job to funtion to community 'expectations' (such as the scholar and whether or not they can do damage by having 'cleric stance'). But that would be going into dangerous territory with many dead horses like whether it's right to demand healers heal or not. The point being, regardless of HOW we get any such cross job boosts I feel that there should be some tangible benefit to other jobs you have for having put time into leveling jobs.

Does that mean that the newbie with only one job maxed out will have slightly less power then a longer term player? Sure, but the same case can be argued for the long term player having more jobs to be flexible to party needs, having more resources, more stuff unlocked, and even just the ability to repair their gear in the field. There is a difference between a min-maxer vet cutting edge player vs the average player who would just get a little tangible reward for trying other classes.

Originally Posted by Legion88

The problem i see with this is that it would be at least mandatory to have at least every "cross class trait slot" filled.
And this perhaps/most likely will return us just to the cross class skills of the past, when every physical DPS had to level DRG just for "Invigorate" and "Blood for Blood" or every caster had to level BLM for "Swiftcast" for example.

Again there is a difference between having a trait that gives a SMALL bonus vs an ability that changes how a class functions. Furthermore I would point out that swift cast is only 'mandatory' for healers largely due to it being coupled with raise. Which if everything goes right shouldn't be needed in a battle; and having the pressure to 'hard cast' the spell replicates needing two party members in the older games to both cast the spell and then use a potion or another spell to bring a character back from having only one hit point. It makes a healer's job vastly easier, but it isn't 'mandatory' to do their job or function. Unlike say cleric stance where a scholar or astrologican couldn't even do open world content without a DPS focused companion because their output would be so low due to their stat distribution. Either way, the way role actions are more or less standardized with must have actions with others not even being really situational most of the time....not much has changed on that front if we are honest.

Now all of that aside, these are minor traits that in theory should be at best a 10% buff to a character overall. Just minor things like say the scholar shield perk shaving a few seconds off damage reducing abilities such as the black mages manaward or more tactically a paladin's array of damage reducing abilities. Now you could go the route of having traits restricted by either war or magic schools or even by damage type (such as by melee vs ranged physical dps). But at most I feel there should only be three traits with my idea, and having each class' traits follow a theme as well as having direct benifit to the job they come from. That way not only do you have three traits to fill your trait slots with, but you also get a reward for 'mastering' a job. Furthermore another aspect to balancing things might simply to have it to where you can pick only one trait from the 50 rank, one from the 60, and one from the 70.

As for why traits given at 50, 60, and 70 there is a very pracitcal reason. That is the level the expansions come out at. Which also is when a job goes through a storyline that is significant to the player's character. Simply put, story-wise it makes sense to give a trait at that point since your character has at that point reached a level of mastery of their job. Mechanic wise it also makes sense since a new slot and thus trait can be designed based around said story. Take the AST since I know it best as my main and some theoretical traits. The adore mentioned 'crit card' trait could be it's level 50 perk due to you first learning the card system by then. For the level 60 you can take a more powerful trait that has a 10% chance to occur on a direct hit where any status effects on you are extended, both good AND bad, by five seconds for your experience with time manipulation. Finally for the level 70 perk a direct critical hit could have the chance to reduce all abilities on CD by five seconds due to learning to manipulate fate.

Now all of that sounds really powerful, and I can hear you saying "well that would make leveling the astrolgian absolutely necessary"! But keep in mind that I feel ALL the classes should give some benifit at said levels, and yes I feel the max level should be the most powerful, though keep in mind it's based off both a critical AND a direct hit as well as a chance on top of that to proc. White mage could give a trait to give random heals, tanks could have various defensive or even damage given when damage recieved traits, or even changing the battlefield like having a MCH trait that summons a healing and/or damage boosting station. Is this all to much? Maybe, probably, but the point is that it also would make selecting traits harder then current actions since these are all based of chances and you only get THREE (at least that is how I would do it).

The difference between the current role actions and traits is two fold. One, traits are passives whereas you actions are abilities you use and have control over. So if you are taking a limited slot ability, you probably will take the one that has the most function in the most situations. Passives are simply something that you have no control over other then in this case their selection. Plus if you noticed I put critical (which is relatively frequent), direct hit (which is less common) and then a critical direct hit (least common) for traits to even have a CHANCE to proc. which when all said and done means you not only have something that can just happen but based on stats as I understand them, the most powerful passives still won't be as frequent as you might like.





Finally to wrap this all up, again I am NOT saying this idea is perfect and should be what Square does to "fix" the issue here. But it was mearly put forward as a quick suggestion as a way to make time invested in other classes have more impact. It's not perfect, and if you like it I welcome working with you to make it better. If you don't, please suggest something and maybe we can make that something Square might want to do. Either way, the core intent of this thread is that there needs to be something to make our characters feel more like someone who has or is mastering all these jobs and taking what they learn between jobs.

I agree that this is an issue, but I don't think the role actions are to blame. Based on what they did in Heavensward, it didn't seem like they'd ever create a new cross-class ability or have new jobs contribute to any of them, so once you had the original classes to 50 that was it forever anyway.

But I do wish there was some incentive to leveling other jobs other than being a completionist crazy person. Probably nothing very substantial, but something.

EDIT: After reading your responses, Malkria, I think you've underestimating how much difference minor bonuses can make. I mean you quoted 10% as an "at best" case - that's a huge bonus. These bonuses can be 0.5% and they'll still be considered "required" at the high end of things.

Perhaps there's some room for abilities that offer benefits outside of party combat, though. I can't think of enough to give every class different ones, but still like field movement speed, discounts on teleportation, combat buffs that apply only in the open world, having certain types of mobs not attack you (or treat you as higher level than you are)... you know, conveniences rather than power. Or maybe give your retainers bonuses, I dunno. Or if you have a job at 70, you can glamour any non-weapon gear from that job on any other job. That'd be cool, though likely a nightmare to make work on the server side.

EDIT 2: Or perhaps, using your trait idea, you get one trait slot (or maybe one each per level tier). So if you're only a level 70 monk, you get the level 70 monk ability, but if you're also a level 70 dragoon, you can choose between either the monk or dragoon ability. Even that is probably going to powerful enough to cause problems unless these traits are so well-balanced as to be virtually identical. But it might be a road to go down.

Originally Posted by Talraen

I agree that this is an issue, but I don't think the role actions are to blame. Based on what they did in Heavensward, it didn't seem like they'd ever create a new cross-class ability or have new jobs contribute to any of them, so once you had the original classes to 50 that was it forever anyway.

But I do wish there was some incentive to leveling other jobs other than being a completionist crazy person. Probably nothing very substantial, but something.

EDIT: After reading your responses, Malkria, I think you've underestimating how much difference minor bonuses can make. I mean you quoted 10% as an "at best" case - that's a huge bonus. These bonuses can be 0.5% and they'll still be considered "required" at the high end of things.

Perhaps there's some room for abilities that offer benefits outside of party combat, though. I can't think of enough to give every class different ones, but still like field movement speed, discounts on teleportation, combat buffs that apply only in the open world, having certain types of mobs not attack you (or treat you as higher level than you are)... you know, conveniences rather than power. Or maybe give your retainers bonuses, I dunno. Or if you have a job at 70, you can glamour any non-weapon gear from that job on any other job. That'd be cool, though likely a nightmare to make work on the server side.

EDIT 2: Or perhaps, using your trait idea, you get one trait slot (or maybe one each per level tier). So if you're only a level 70 monk, you get the level 70 monk ability, but if you're also a level 70 dragoon, you can choose between either the monk or dragoon ability. Even that is probably going to powerful enough to cause problems unless these traits are so well-balanced as to be virtually identical. But it might be a road to go down.

I did mention the traits being locked potentially by levels. I was a bit wordy so sorry if I wan't clear on it, but that is actually how I suggest it be done. With various strengths per tier.

On one hand I see the point about 10% being 'must have' by end game raiders...and at the same time I feel that that is an issue with people who require you max out every crafting job before you can play with them. At the same time, as I pointed out to DrWho by and large the reason people don't snub players who play various jobs besides the meta is that all are equally viable. In which case this trait system could be a good way to have some more crazy stuff happen on procs in which case it would be, for most players, a matter of preference. For example with the idea of the AST and it's theoretical CD reducing 70 trait, with the WHM you could have the chance for spells to cost no mana for a few seconds, or with the BLM a chance for a fire 4 to go off on the target. ALL of which would be very nice choices and very viable as a 70 perk; and in the end regardless of which class of those three jobs you played all would have significant benefit to the job if taken.

I know it's an older movie, but here is a fitting way to put it:



If the worry is that a trait will be mandatory, the the solution is to have enough viable alternatives to where there is no one 'best' option.