Buff Mana Shift... plz

[Yeol]

I think the request is mostly validated by the fact pick up groups can sometimes have no BRD/MCH and Mana Shift isn't enough if things are going bad. Also it's not enough on God Kefka if things are going well.

If someone runs with no BRD/MCH, they should know what to expect. Your caster is not your MP battery because they need their MP.

I don't think the purpose of Mana Shift is to be as good as Refresh. It is there to help, but people started depending on it so much. I personally think casters will suffer if they keep it on CD at a higher cost with no BRD/MCH around to give them their MP back.

[Kabooa]

If someone runs with no BRD/MCH, they should know what to expect. Your caster is not your MP battery because they need their MP.

I don't think the purpose of Mana Shift is to be as good as Refresh. It is there to help, but people started depending on it so much. I personally think casters will suffer if they keep it on CD at a higher cost with no BRD/MCH around to give them their MP back.

Then Refresh can put a damage penalty back onto Bard/Machinist. After all you shouldn't be depending on it.

[zuzu-bq]

If someone runs with no BRD/MCH, they should know what to expect. Your caster is not your MP battery because they need their MP.

I don't think the purpose of Mana Shift is to be as good as Refresh. It is there to help, but people started depending on it so much. I personally think casters will suffer if they keep it on CD at a higher cost with no BRD/MCH around to give them their MP back.

So what would the solution be to a somewhat randomized to be paired without a BRD/MCH since that's part of the game? These kind of groups aren't running without them on their own will. The purpose is truly to not be as good, and it shouldn't be, but it's far inferior and it ends up serving no real purpose at the end.

The "dependance" argument would make sense if all jobs were self sufficient, which they aren't.

[Yeol]

Then Refresh can put a damage penalty back onto Bard/Machinist. After all you shouldn't be depending on it.

MCH has no benefit from using Refresh while BRD does. Adding a penalty is not fair unless they make a change where BRD does not benefit from their own Refresh.

People will force casters to be responsible for filling MP bars first rather than BRD/MCH. And this will hurt their MP a lot. The only way they can recover is if they have BRD/MCH. It doesn't make sense to have casters empty their MB bar and then have BRD/MCH fill it with a penalty...What?

So what would the solution be to a somewhat randomized to be paired without a BRD/MCH since that's part of the game? These kind of groups aren't running without them on their own will. The purpose is truly to not be as good, and it shouldn't be, but it's far inferior and it ends up serving no real purpose at the end.

The "dependance" argument would make sense if all jobs were self sufficient, which they aren't.

If people queue via Raid Finder, they will always have one physical ranged dps. People will only have no BRD/MCH if they go with PF and party leader did not lock a spot for one physical ranged dps, or their static simply does not have one.

I agree it is not fair for groups running with no BRD/MCH to have this issue. But it seems the game is designed this way (Call it bad design).
Back in the days' healers managed their MP in order to heal and dps without having BRD/MCH take damage penalty to give them MP. So I assume this is what healers with no BRD/MCH have to do.

[zuzu-bq]

I wouldn't say it's bad design. The game is truly made for one of each role and I personally lock my PFs in that way. My point is very simple though, Mana Shift doesn't serve for its own purpose on most cases in special when Refresh is out of the table. I guess in the end we both agree on the same thing but by different standards.

As for the penalty, recovering that idea wouldn't be very nice and would make the rangeds jobs harder to balance for no purpose but adding an annoyance back to the role.

[Shurrikhan]

Then Refresh can put a damage penalty back onto Bard/Machinist. After all you shouldn't be depending on it.

While I'd personally prefer to see a return to actual songs/turret effects, that would seem awkwardly arbitrary to me at this point.

Moreover, we'd need to see Hypercharge moved from a CD to something with activation (in place of the GCD Bards lose) and then drain cost (similar to Foes) for Machinist not to be further penalized by such a penalty than Bard is, as Bard itself (and its rDPS bonuses) benefits from Refresh while Machinist does not.

[Kabooa]

While I'd personally prefer to see a return to actual songs/turret effects, that would seem awkwardly arbitrary to me at this point.

Moreover, we'd need to see Hypercharge moved from a CD to something with activation (in place of the GCD Bards lose) and then drain cost (similar to Foes) for Machinist not to be further penalized by such a penalty than Bard is, as Bard itself (and its rDPS bonuses) benefits from Refresh while Machinist does not.

you can keep piercing down, or you can keep refresh in its current form, or you buff mana shift.

You get one of those 3.

[Shurrikhan]

you can keep piercing down, or you can keep refresh in its current form, or you buff mana shift.

You get one of those 3.

So if we keep piercing down we have to nerf Refresh AND cannot buff mana shift. That seems a false ultimatum...

I feel like Mana Shift could use a buff regardless of what is done to the power of ranged toolkits and independence.

I'd also like to see greater balance between the drastically rDPS-inferior Machinist and -superior Bard regardless.

My point was only that such a change would inadvertently increase imbalances already in place, and would seem awkward and contradictory to the current Ranged toolkit design; if made, I'd prefer the due additional changes be made.

I don't feel I was unclear.

It's one of the three, not two. If you drop piercing down, it stops there. That puts Mach/Bard damage to a balanced area compared to the goodies they bring, still entirely capable of hitting every DPS requirement and excelling, but not without making nearly an entire role obsolete.

You were clear, yes; I just don't think the mutual exclusion is remotely realistic, nor do I think even an extreme extent of any or all of the three changes could make a entire role noticeably impacted, let alone obsolete. I feel you are far overstating the prevalence and counterplay of the three spectrums of changes mentioned.

[Kabooa]

I don't feel I was unclear.

It's one of the three, not two. If you drop piercing down, it stops there. That puts Mach/Bard damage to a balanced area compared to the goodies they bring, still entirely capable of hitting every DPS requirement and excelling, but not without making nearly an entire role obsolete.

[Yeol]

you can keep piercing down, or you can keep refresh in its current form, or you buff mana shift.

You get one of those 3.

I'm not against buffing Mana Shift (I've already stated this on my first post).

I also pointed out some of it usefulness as long as the party has BRD/MCH, it shouldn't be a problem. But people are complaining about MP issues that healers run though & Mana Shift is not good enough compared to Refresh.
I just pointed out that casters will have the same issue with buffed Mana Shift if there are no BRD/MCH around, and the caster will have to manage their MP in order to not lose so much. Maybe I was misunderstood, so trying to clear things.