DPS Balance Thread

[HyperiusUltima]

Also, looking at the top speedkill for o6s (which does use triple melee), Trick Attack provided over three times as much raid DPS as Disembowel.

Just a little thing to note: O6S is a dummy not including as many mechanics that force Melee out of range like the rest of the tier does. Disembowel's rDPS increases based on if there's a BRD/MCH included, and that's 600 DPS by itself if you have both. Does that not feel like it's heavily weighted unlike TA which has a cooldown and not 100% uptime?

[Powercow]

Just a little thing to note: O6S is a dummy not including as many mechanics that force Melee out of range like the rest of the tier does. Disembowel's rDPS increases based on if there's a BRD/MCH included, and that's 600 DPS by itself if you have both. Does that not feel like it's heavily weighted unlike TA which has a cooldown and not 100% uptime?

No. On God Kefka one of the top runs I found (same group as the Demon Chad group from my previous post, but slightly different comp) ran with BRD MCH DRG NIN. Trick Attack still provided 20% more raid DPS than Disembowel with both ranged.

[Yeol]

No. On God Kefka one of the top runs I found (same group as the Demon Chad group from my previous post, but slightly different comp) ran with BRD MCH DRG NIN. Trick Attack still provided 20% more raid DPS than Disembowel with both ranged.

When you have two burst jobs (BRD/MCH) taking advantage of Trick Attack while being buffed with Disembowel as well, you'll see Trick Attack providing a lot.

Take away DRG and have BRD/MCH/NIN then see the gain from Trick Attack with no Disembowel to buff BRD/MCH dps.

The results will be BRD/MCH/DRG > BRD/MCH/NIN.

[Powercow]

When you have two burst jobs (BRD/MCH) taking advantage of Trick Attack while being buffed with Disembowel as well, you'll see Trick Attack providing a lot.

Take away DRG and have BRD/MCH/NIN then see the gain from Trick Attack with no Disembowel to buff BRD/MCH dps.

The results will be BRD/MCH/DRG > BRD/MCH/NIN.

In the top 2X Ranged Demon Chad kill, taking away Disembowel during TA results in a whopping 19 DPS lost for the raid. No, your argument makes no sense. In any non-doubles composition in the game, NIN/X*7 versus DRG/BRD/MCH/X*5, TA will still beat Disembowel. But that's an extremely narrow view of the situation.

The problem people in this thread think exists is that Disembowel is too strong -- in a single-ranged group composition, it doesn't even break the top 5 buffs/debuffs for raid DPS (TA, Balance, Litany, BV, bard passive crit, Overcharge all beat it resoundingly.) The problem is twofold:

1) Disembowel is on a job that has one of the strongest buffs in the game (Litany), plus another decent one (Eye), and can still put out good DPS. At least with Ninja their DPS is pretty garbage.

2) Disembowel is extremely focused in its benefit. Slashing debuff is applicable by 3 of the 5 jobs that benefit from it, Dragon Kick is applied by the only job to benefit from it, and Brotherhood and Embolden apply to the majority of jobs in the game. Every other DPS buff applies to everyone (roughly) equally. Disembowel stands alone as being the only debuff that only one job applies that benefits only 2 other potential jobs -- far too narrow of a focus, and it creates this perception that it's too powerful. If you main Bard or Machinist I'm sure it seems that way because its impact on your DPS is huge, but its overall raid impact is mediocre at best. Even in a composition with 2 ranged it's still not as potent as TA, Balance or Overcharge.

So does this mean Disembowel needs a nerf? No, but it does need a change to be more widespread. Imagine if it gave a bonus of 2% crit chance against the target for anyone attacking it -- this would be a noticeable decrease in the DPS of a Bard or Machinist, but it would actually be a buff for the raid overall (excepting double ranged groups.)
Also imagine if, say, Hot Shot applied the debuff, or if Ironjaws could. Would Disembowel be so OP if it was applied by more people? Nobody looks at the Slashing debuff from Samurai and says "oh man, their raid DPS contribution is insane with a ninja, warrior, and paladin!" That's because 2 of those can also apply it!
The last option to balance it out would be to, as others stated, simply remove it and rebalance all of the jobs affected by it to the same overall DPS they're at now. This seems like such a lazy yet surprisingly difficult way of going about it, but hey if it works.

[HyoMinPark]

The problem people in this thread think exists is that Disembowel is too strong

I think you aren’t considering how skewed the benefits of Disembowel are compared to other rBuffs. Like I said in my long wall-o-text above, in a DRG/BRD or DRG/MCH comp, that ~300 DPS is for 1 person. In a DRG/BRD/MCH comp, that ~600 DPS is for 2 people. Compare that to any other rBuff (save Embloden since it won’t benefit other magic users outside of the RDM that uses it), which are benefits for the entire raid of 8 people. Benefits for 1 or 2 versus benefits for the entire 8. 860 rDPS for TA (or even 900+) seems massive, but it’s spread across 8 people. Disembowel benefits 1 or 2. 900+ for 8; ~600 for 2; ~300 for just 1. That’s heavily skewed, and that’s why people say Disembowel is so strong.

I’m not some orange-tier BRD, but my highest for this tier is 90th percentile in V6S. It was several weeks ago and I don’t think anyone in the raid had BiS (though the NIN had consistent orange parses), but I got a +264 DPS benefit from Disembowel. Trick, for comparison, gave the raid +476, but it only gave me +97.4 DPS. +264 versus +97.4. +264 for 1, versus +476 for 8.

[Powercow]

I think you aren’t considering how skewed the benefits of Disembowel are compared to other rBuffs.

I am. That's actually my exact point. Its overall raid DPS is too *focused* in 1-2 other people.

Compare that to any other rBuff (save Embloden since it won’t benefit other magic users outside of the RDM that uses it), which are benefits for the entire raid of 8 people.

Also, Brotherhood is physical only too, but Brotherhood is its own weird box of awkwardness, albeit less so since it got buffed.