DPS Balance Thread

[HyoMinPark]

Ranged

BRD: Excels in support; superior to MCH in just about any raid comp and provides a plethora of Offensive and Defensive Buffs while having high damage throughput with songs. Has a lower skill ceiling than MCH and isn’t as reliant on ping.

MCH: High Damage Burst Job, capable of dealing high damage and providing an alternative to NIN(albeit a little weaker) while also bring the same Role Skills as BRD. Lacks all the buffs except Hypercharge(5% rDPS increase) and has a very high skill ceiling in regards to double-weaving and overheating with ping.

BRD has a much higher skill ceiling in terms of optimization than MCH does. BRD’s DPS optimization is all about making the most they can out of their DoT damage and procs; there is a section in the current BRD guide (that is super long) that gives potency increase values for each raid buff (Litany, Chain, Trick Attack, Spear, Balance, etc.), and how much a BRD gains and loses by choosing to double-snapshot each buff with Iron Jaws. The guide even explains that it is actually a gain to triple weave a Bloodletter > Empyreal Arrow > Bloodletter during Mage’s Ballad and clip your GCD as opposed to doing BL > EA > HS > BL.

BRD isn’t as heavily reliant on ping as MCH (though high ping can cause double weaving problems, and in Army’s at 4 stacks of Repertoire, you end up clipping if you double weave and it just cannot be helped even at a low ping), but the skill ceiling for BRD is still incredibly high. By comparison, the skill floor for BRD is very low, which is why a lot of people recommend it as a first DPS job because it is so easy to pick up and learn at that most basic level.

I do agree with your other points though; BRD massively out-supports MCH with Foe’s, Battle Voice, and its passive crit buff (and even with Nature’s Minne, which is a free Convalescence on the MT every 45 seconds), but I suppose the developer’s answer to this is an increase in personal DPS on the part of the MCH. They are higher in personal damage output compared to a BRD (by comparison, they also suffer more than a BRD by the lack of a DRG, since BRD at least has DoT damage and the ticks are not reliant on piercing resistance down but everything MCH does is). MCH is still meta, but it is usually the first to be subbed out for BLM, SMN, or, if the party wants to do triple-melee, MNK before the group subs out MNK (though BRD was subbed out during UCoB prog because Dismantle was very good, and BRD doesn’t offer anything similar to it to reduce the damage of certain attacks). Because groups that focus on optimization care more about rDPS as opposed to just pDPS, and rDPS will outweigh pDPS—BRD, NIN, and DRG all have relatively low pDPS, but ridiculously high rDPS because of their support.

Things like using two stack Pitch Perfect when there’s a DRG and SCH, holding Sidewinder for Raging Strikes, knowing when you have to use Straighter Shot on Straight Shot instead of Refulgent Arrow, extending Foe’s Requiem with Refresh and clipping DoTs in time for transitions and downtime, these are all a part of optimisation and examples of playing at the BRD’s skill ceiling. However, you can consider absolutely none of these and still do well. Hence, high skill ceiling low skill floor.

Everything you say here is right save for one: unless it has changed recently, you do not hold Sidewinder for Raging Strikes. You actually try to line it up with the NIN’s Trick Attack, since they share the same cooldown timer. Refulgent is usually always used over Straighter Shot, unless SS is about to fall off and you need to refresh your DoTs. But you can actually clip them when they are >10 seconds remaining and not lose any potency by it (the IJ refresh is considered ‘FREE’), so I believe that most BRD opt to refresh them early so that they can Refulgent over Straighter Shot. You will always double IJ regardless of duration if Litany and/or Chain are up (definitely if both are up), and under certain other conditions, such as when there are 2 or more damage-increasing buffs up (Balance, Trick Attack, Brotherhood, Embolden-5, etc.).

Also, BRD's ceiling only raises based on party comp because of snapshotting. Outside of that its ceiling isn't that high since you're going to be busy refreshing your DoTs as well as keeping up with procs, which in all honesty isn't as hard as having to mash all the things perfectly for your main damage every 60s that can either be a big explosion or just a hit that's the size of dynamite.

Not necessarily. Even if a BRD is in the absolute worst comp for them (basically anything without a DRG), they still need to try and optimize for the buffs they have. It’s actually harder for a BRD to reach decent numbers when they are in a comp that specificially hurts them (i.e., no DRG). It says something about a BRD’s personal skill if, with a comp of NIN/SAM/RDM/BRD and with no AST (so SCH/WHM), they still manage to get high blues and purples in terms of percentile rankings.

Even with just a SCH giving me Chain, there have been times where I have been constantly double weaving Pitch Perfects or Bloodletters. Optimization doesn’t just suddenly decrease because you’re in a bad comp. Even in a bad comp you still try to optimize as much as you can with what you have. Again, as I said previously, the BRD guide has a section dedicated entirely to Iron Jaws optimization even in absence of Litany and Chain Strategem. Sadly, it’s even harder with unpredictable rBuffs like Embolden to optimize snapshotting, and RDM is only prog-meta.

I have to respectfully disagree that a BRD’s skill ceiling only increases if they’re in a meta comp, or a comp with a lot of rBuffs. Having nothing can still be a challenge in terms of pushing as much as you possibly can out of the job. I speak from experience (my current group comps have had no DRG, and very infrequently an AST, but I still managed to get 75th on Phantom Train with a comp of NIN/SAM/RDM/BRD a couple weeks ago...I also do not have BRD BiS as I only cleared God Kefka last week).

[HyperiusUltima]

SNIP

Yeah, someone got me confused on ceiling and floors, but in regards to the rest I managed to finish writing just brief summaries of the jobs and what I thought of them.

Regardless, I want to break the stupid chain that is DRG-BRD-MCH because of the fact that BRD/MCH's damage is heavily impacted by Disembowel. Without a DRG, BRD/MCH's damage is neutered by at least 300ish DPS, meaning that's more work for other jobs. This creates a big balance issue for rDPS; As much as rDPS is a thing, I don't believe it needs to be everything when it comes to balance otherwise we have the whole #DeleteMNK issue again. If anything I would wish that the development team would step out of Heavensward for a moment and start fixing its Raid Synergy problem in Stormblood because you have about 1 Job(RDM) that's used in progression meta, and about 3/9 jobs that get shanked for either not bringing enough raid utility or being a Solo DPS and are locked out of raids usually.

If the community was a bit more open about taking jobs instead of hopping on the bandwagon every god damn raid tier, it'd help a lot with giving feedback instead of trying to mime the World Firsts in everything.

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, someone got me confused on ceiling and floors, but in regards to the rest I managed to finish writing just brief summaries of the jobs and what I thought of them.

It’s all good. ^^

Regardless, I want to break the stupid chain that is DRG-BRD-MCH because of the fact that BRD/MCH's damage is heavily impacted by Disembowel. Without a DRG, BRD/MCH's damage is neutered by at least 300ish DPS, meaning that's more work for other jobs.

I do agree that something needs to be done about piercing. Until something is done about it (either removing it, or giving it to another job to offer another synergy option for BRD/MCH), the physical meta is going to continue to reign supreme for groups that care about min-maxing and optimization. Since the developers have stated that they cannot give BRD/MCH their own piercing because “too OP” (yet they are more than happy to allow the two jobs to be “OP” with a DRG, and continue to enforce the DRG/BRD/MCH Trio to the detriment of other comps... /salt), I would opt for it to be removed entirely. Buff DRG’s potencies to compensate, since they will suffer from the removal of it, but now BRD/MCH doesn’t have to worry about losing 5% of their damage just because the melee want to be NIN/MNK instead of NIN/DRG.

I think it’s something probably only BRD and MCH mains can really understand, but it is a terrible feeling to know that you lose ~300 DPS along just from no Disembowel—more for lack of Litany on BRD (because crit scaling)—and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. To raid with a DRG, and then go to raiding without one, and seeing your damage just drop 400~500 DPS while knowing there is nothing you can do to help it is an incredibly crappy feeling. I speak from experience lol.


I think it is good that JP players were the ones to speak out against how much piercing affects comps and BRD/MCH’s damage, and I also think that it’s good they were quick to call crap on the excuse about giving piercing to BRD/MCH as impossible “because reasons”. SE listens to them more than they do the NA/EU side I feel, so maybe this will get them to consider other options for piercing resistance down.

Low tier - SAM/BLM

Your highest personal dmg classes but provide the least amount of buffs if any at at all, usually labaled persona non grata as they take up spots for classes who offered more which currently is at a higher value than classes who offered nothing...

This is true. However, some groups actually opt to sub out MCH for BLM/SMN, if the BLM or SMN is really good. Because BLM is in a spot now where it can finally push enough numbers to offset the loss of a MCH. Physical meta comps will still favor the top-tier four, but I’ve seen more uploads where the MCH is subbed out for a BLM or a SMN. Which is good, but the developers still need to address the DRG/BRD/MCH Trio, and the only way to do that is to address piercing resistance down. Nerfing it from 10% to 5% from Heavensward to Stormblood, I think, they thought would be an adequate solution. But it didn’t work, because the meta is still the same in Sigmascape as it was in Creator. Just two casters now happen to be able to squeeze their way in if they are good enough.

SAM on the other hand.......it needs a lot of help right now.

[Sylvain]

Yeah, someone got me confused on ceiling and floors, but in regards to the rest I managed to finish writing just brief summaries of the jobs and what I thought of them.

Regardless, I want to break the stupid chain that is DRG-BRD-MCH because of the fact that BRD/MCH's damage is heavily impacted by Disembowel. Without a DRG, BRD/MCH's damage is neutered by at least 300ish DPS, meaning that's more work for other jobs.

The opposite is also true, DRG contribution is also heavily dimishined when there are no BRD/MCH

And this is something people get confused a lot and even Y.P had to clarify recently.

BRD/MCH and balanced around having no DRG. Because Disembowel isn't their contribution, it's the DRG one.
On the other hand, DRG are balanced around having BRD/MCH because disembowel is part of their contribution. So from a balance (or, "job budget") persepective, bringing a DRG when there are no BRD/MCH is bringing a subpar dps because a big chunk of their rdps actually takes into account one contribution to BRD/MCH.
Which is why when people asked "could BRD/MCH get their own piercing debuff" Y.P replied that "they would need to nerf the job getting the debuff accordingly" because now the debuff would be part of their budget.

The same happens with BLM when people ask for utility (magic debuff), if they were to add such a debuff, BLM would receive a nerf somewhere to compensate.

Ultimately it doesn't change much in term of final result, but I wanted to point this out. A BRD/MCH without a DRG doesn't "loose" anything, because the debuff isn't part of their budget, the opposite isn't true. A DRG rdps budget takes into account disenbowel, if there are no BRD/MCH, their rdps contribution lowers.

Now we can argue wether this is right, wrong or even properly balanced, but the thing is, this is how S.E currently balances jobs. They take into account what they provide to the raid, and not what they benefit.