DPS Balance Thread

[HyperiusUltima]

SNIP

Yeah, someone got me confused on ceiling and floors, but in regards to the rest I managed to finish writing just brief summaries of the jobs and what I thought of them.

Regardless, I want to break the stupid chain that is DRG-BRD-MCH because of the fact that BRD/MCH's damage is heavily impacted by Disembowel. Without a DRG, BRD/MCH's damage is neutered by at least 300ish DPS, meaning that's more work for other jobs. This creates a big balance issue for rDPS; As much as rDPS is a thing, I don't believe it needs to be everything when it comes to balance otherwise we have the whole #DeleteMNK issue again. If anything I would wish that the development team would step out of Heavensward for a moment and start fixing its Raid Synergy problem in Stormblood because you have about 1 Job(RDM) that's used in progression meta, and about 3/9 jobs that get shanked for either not bringing enough raid utility or being a Solo DPS and are locked out of raids usually.

If the community was a bit more open about taking jobs instead of hopping on the bandwagon every god damn raid tier, it'd help a lot with giving feedback instead of trying to mime the World Firsts in everything.

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, someone got me confused on ceiling and floors, but in regards to the rest I managed to finish writing just brief summaries of the jobs and what I thought of them.

It’s all good. ^^

Regardless, I want to break the stupid chain that is DRG-BRD-MCH because of the fact that BRD/MCH's damage is heavily impacted by Disembowel. Without a DRG, BRD/MCH's damage is neutered by at least 300ish DPS, meaning that's more work for other jobs.

I do agree that something needs to be done about piercing. Until something is done about it (either removing it, or giving it to another job to offer another synergy option for BRD/MCH), the physical meta is going to continue to reign supreme for groups that care about min-maxing and optimization. Since the developers have stated that they cannot give BRD/MCH their own piercing because “too OP” (yet they are more than happy to allow the two jobs to be “OP” with a DRG, and continue to enforce the DRG/BRD/MCH Trio to the detriment of other comps... /salt), I would opt for it to be removed entirely. Buff DRG’s potencies to compensate, since they will suffer from the removal of it, but now BRD/MCH doesn’t have to worry about losing 5% of their damage just because the melee want to be NIN/MNK instead of NIN/DRG.

I think it’s something probably only BRD and MCH mains can really understand, but it is a terrible feeling to know that you lose ~300 DPS along just from no Disembowel—more for lack of Litany on BRD (because crit scaling)—and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. To raid with a DRG, and then go to raiding without one, and seeing your damage just drop 400~500 DPS while knowing there is nothing you can do to help it is an incredibly crappy feeling. I speak from experience lol.


I think it is good that JP players were the ones to speak out against how much piercing affects comps and BRD/MCH’s damage, and I also think that it’s good they were quick to call crap on the excuse about giving piercing to BRD/MCH as impossible “because reasons”. SE listens to them more than they do the NA/EU side I feel, so maybe this will get them to consider other options for piercing resistance down.

Low tier - SAM/BLM

Your highest personal dmg classes but provide the least amount of buffs if any at at all, usually labaled persona non grata as they take up spots for classes who offered more which currently is at a higher value than classes who offered nothing...

This is true. However, some groups actually opt to sub out MCH for BLM/SMN, if the BLM or SMN is really good. Because BLM is in a spot now where it can finally push enough numbers to offset the loss of a MCH. Physical meta comps will still favor the top-tier four, but I’ve seen more uploads where the MCH is subbed out for a BLM or a SMN. Which is good, but the developers still need to address the DRG/BRD/MCH Trio, and the only way to do that is to address piercing resistance down. Nerfing it from 10% to 5% from Heavensward to Stormblood, I think, they thought would be an adequate solution. But it didn’t work, because the meta is still the same in Sigmascape as it was in Creator. Just two casters now happen to be able to squeeze their way in if they are good enough.

SAM on the other hand.......it needs a lot of help right now.

[Sylvain]

Yeah, someone got me confused on ceiling and floors, but in regards to the rest I managed to finish writing just brief summaries of the jobs and what I thought of them.

Regardless, I want to break the stupid chain that is DRG-BRD-MCH because of the fact that BRD/MCH's damage is heavily impacted by Disembowel. Without a DRG, BRD/MCH's damage is neutered by at least 300ish DPS, meaning that's more work for other jobs.

The opposite is also true, DRG contribution is also heavily dimishined when there are no BRD/MCH

And this is something people get confused a lot and even Y.P had to clarify recently.

BRD/MCH and balanced around having no DRG. Because Disembowel isn't their contribution, it's the DRG one.
On the other hand, DRG are balanced around having BRD/MCH because disembowel is part of their contribution. So from a balance (or, "job budget") persepective, bringing a DRG when there are no BRD/MCH is bringing a subpar dps because a big chunk of their rdps actually takes into account one contribution to BRD/MCH.
Which is why when people asked "could BRD/MCH get their own piercing debuff" Y.P replied that "they would need to nerf the job getting the debuff accordingly" because now the debuff would be part of their budget.

The same happens with BLM when people ask for utility (magic debuff), if they were to add such a debuff, BLM would receive a nerf somewhere to compensate.

Ultimately it doesn't change much in term of final result, but I wanted to point this out. A BRD/MCH without a DRG doesn't "loose" anything, because the debuff isn't part of their budget, the opposite isn't true. A DRG rdps budget takes into account disenbowel, if there are no BRD/MCH, their rdps contribution lowers.

Now we can argue wether this is right, wrong or even properly balanced, but the thing is, this is how S.E currently balances jobs. They take into account what they provide to the raid, and not what they benefit.

[HyperiusUltima]

In regards to SAM, yes. I agree that it needs plenty of help right now in the fact that we're still stuck in the dark ages where solo doesn't match rDPS.

If anything, I can expect them to actually increase the potencies a bit on some of their strongest attacks and actually make SAM a powerhouse on the same level that BLM is currently. I don't know what they'll do, but it has to at least make SAM appealing to raid again otherwise we're going to wind up with Heavensward Syndrome.

[Remedi]

I think, piercing is a bit of a red herring considering trick attack, I mean you could try and give trick attack to another job, but then why not bringing that job + NIN for double trick? I mean piercing is strong and all but triple melee kinda works too, they could try to create a caster comp in some way to kinda balance it, but even then NIN would still be ther and once piercing gets resolved in any way it's only a matter of time that they'll become the focus of ppl hate just as piercing is now

[HyoMinPark]

I think, piercing is a bit of a red herring considering trick attack, I mean you could try and give trick attack to another job, but then why not bringing that job + NIN for double trick? I mean piercing is strong and all but triple melee kinda works too, they could try to create a caster comp in some way to kinda balance it, but even then NIN would still be ther and once piercing gets resolved in any way it's only a matter of time that they'll become the focus of ppl hate just as piercing is now

TA is strong, but Disembowel gives ~300 DPS for 1 ranged, and ~600 DPS for 2. The benefits of Disembowel over TA is more if you have double-ranged. And TA is not as beneficial to casters compared to physical jobs because they do not have autos to also benefit for the duration (and the same applies for Litany).

TA is good, but the physical meta is held together by piercing. It was the case in Creator, and it is still the case now. Triple melee only works because MNK was buffed. It wasn’t really viable during Deltascape, but it can be for certain floors of Sigmascape (V7S you probably do not want triple melee because of the Ink and Chakras—someone has to disengage between the melee DPS and the tanks—it’s not impossible, but someone is going to be losing uptime).

[Powercow]

And TA is not as beneficial to casters compared to physical jobs because they do not have autos to also benefit for the duration (and the same applies for Litany).

Er, what? Maybe you're thinking oGCDs, but even then that only applies to Black Mage not being able to frontload a bunch of free bonus damage. Summoners and Red Mages can absolutely make use of short-term buffs like physical classes can.

Also, looking at the top speedkill for o6s (which does use triple melee), Trick Attack provided over three times as much raid DPS as Disembowel. It's the combination of Disembowel, Litany, and a teensy bit from the Eye that puts DRG just barely ahead of TA (1001 bonus damage from the dragoon's raid buffs, compared to 967 from Trick Attack.) There's also the much more difficult-to-measure value of Shadewalker, as determining how much more raid DPS you get from tanks using more DPS combos over threat combos adds to the overall raid DPS (it could be none, it could be a couple hundred, it's difficult to say for certain.) Any of the three Bard buffs beats Disembowel, hell even Brotherhood beats Disembowel in a quad-physical comp.

It's still awkward as hell that BRD and MCH is so heavily tied to Dragoon, it just seems like a bigger problem than others because unlike, say, Battle Voice's effect being neat for everyone, all of that power fluctuation is focused on 1-2 people. Losing Brotherhood is a small loss across 5 other players, losing Disembowel is a huge loss for 1.

[HyperiusUltima]

Also, looking at the top speedkill for o6s (which does use triple melee), Trick Attack provided over three times as much raid DPS as Disembowel.

Just a little thing to note: O6S is a dummy not including as many mechanics that force Melee out of range like the rest of the tier does. Disembowel's rDPS increases based on if there's a BRD/MCH included, and that's 600 DPS by itself if you have both. Does that not feel like it's heavily weighted unlike TA which has a cooldown and not 100% uptime?

[Powercow]

Just a little thing to note: O6S is a dummy not including as many mechanics that force Melee out of range like the rest of the tier does. Disembowel's rDPS increases based on if there's a BRD/MCH included, and that's 600 DPS by itself if you have both. Does that not feel like it's heavily weighted unlike TA which has a cooldown and not 100% uptime?

No. On God Kefka one of the top runs I found (same group as the Demon Chad group from my previous post, but slightly different comp) ran with BRD MCH DRG NIN. Trick Attack still provided 20% more raid DPS than Disembowel with both ranged.

[HyoMinPark]

Also, looking at the top speedkill for o6s (which does use triple melee), Trick Attack provided over three times as much raid DPS as Disembowel. It's the combination of Disembowel, Litany, and a teensy bit from the Eye that puts DRG just barely ahead of TA (1001 bonus damage from the dragoon's raid buffs, compared to 967 from Trick Attack.) There's also the much more difficult-to-measure value of Shadewalker, as determining how much more raid DPS you get from tanks using more DPS combos over threat combos adds to the overall raid DPS (it could be none, it could be a couple hundred, it's difficult to say for certain.) Any of the three Bard buffs beats Disembowel, hell even Brotherhood beats Disembowel in a quad-physical comp.

I’m well aware that V6S can run triple-melee; I never said that it could not, only that V7S would be ill-advised to do triple-melee because someone is going to have to disengage for Ink/Chakras. However, as Yeol stated in reference to your God Kefka parse that shows more rDPS gain from TA than Disembowel, they have a valid point in pointing out that BRD/MCH (two high-bursting jobs) are going to inflate the gain of TA. Especially since Wildfire should always line up with every TA (and Wildfire is the only thing out of a MCH’s kit save perhaps their Autoturret that is not affected by Disembowel, but is affected by other rBuffs like TA). Another point to make is that the ~600 rDPS of Disembowel is between two jobs; the ~860 you quoted from TA is across the entire raid.

TA is nice, but it doesn’t hold together the physical meta in the same way piercing does. If the developers wanted to break the meta, all they need to do is remove piercing from the game (and all resistance down debuffs while they’re at it; they’re all redundant as it is now, save for piercing which has 1 option and 3 jobs that benefit). I feel that perhaps you weren’t quite understanding what I was saying. Maybe I did not word it clearly enough, but the physical meta exists because of piercing, not Trick Attack. Trick is nice, but if you removed it, it would only bench NIN because they wouldn’t be able to hold their meta spot with Shadewalker alone; MNK would actually replace them in the all-physical comp very easily because of their personal damage plus anything that Brotherhood gives the raid. TA’s removal (and NIN’s from the meta) wouldn’t affect the trio of DRG/BRD/MCH—they would still happily be holding hands at the Meta Party.

BRD’s buffs do not outright beat Disembowel if there is a double physical ranged comp—the Passive Crit buff, Foe’s, and BV do not come anywhere close. Combined, yes. Individually, no. Taking the second speed-kill ranking for God Kefka (which uses DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH as their DPS comp), Disembowel gave 635.5 rDPS to the BRD and the MCH (keep in mind what I said above—this is for 2 jobs). BRD’s buffs were: Battle Voice at 242.6; Passive Crit at 315.9; Foe’s Requiem at 388.0–all for the entire raid. If there had been only one physical ranged and the other ranged was a caster, then yes, the Passive Crit buff and Foe’s could have contributed almost as much as Disembowel, maybe even a little bit more (depending on how many times Foe’s was used for the raid). But in a double physical ranged comp, they won’t come close individually to beating out Disembowel. Battle Voice actually loses a little bit of rDPS contribution because WARs no longer value it as heavily as before, and they should be in an IR window each time BV is used—they’ll get benefits from 10 seconds of the duration, but the other 10 seconds won’t matter since IR guarantees Direct Hit Crits.



For comparison, I looked at the top speed kill for God Kefka. DPS comp was NIN/DRG/BRD/SMN. Here, both the Passive Crit (321.7) and Foe’s (332.4) outweighed Disembowel (297.4). However, if the SMN had been a MCH, neither would have came close, because Disembowel would have been pushing almost 600 if you assume doubling it’s contribution.

It’s a bit incorrect to say that Disembowel can be flat out beat by any BRD buff. It can, but only if the BRD is the only physical ranged. If there’s a MCH, BRD’s buffs individually won’t touch Disembowel’s contribution. Brotherhood will beat out Disembowel as well, but under the same conditions—in the event the group doesn’t roll NIN and does MNK/DRG/BRD/MCH (odd comp but probably not impossible), Disembowel will still stand at ~600. I’m looking at the top speed kill ranking for V6S, and Brotherhood is at 412.1 with MNK/DRG/NIN/BRD. Assuming it’s value will probably be the same if there was double-ranged, it won’t outweigh Disembowel. Though that comp is unlikely, it’s still something to think about. And, here again, Brotherhood benefits all 8 party members; Disembowel directly affects 1 person. 412.1 for 8 versus 300.3 (the Disembowel value for that same V6S parse) for 1. Still heavily skewed, and it only serves to illustrate further how important Disembowel is.


There is one thing that should be kept in mind, though. Since we are talking about the top speed kill parses, we also have to remember that these runs in and of themselves are heavily padded, and that results are going to be a little bit skewed. I still think that Disembowel is more important to holding the physical ranged meta together compared to TA; I just wanted to make a note that the values we are quote are skewed by pads. (The V6S run I’m quote has over 1,000 rDPS contribution to Balance alone, so that is going to skew the numbers of both TA and Brotherhood, and even Disembowel, since they’re flat damage buffs and not RNG crit-enhancing buffs, which will still be skewed more than likely, just not as much as a flat damage buff).


Hopefully this all makes sense, since it is quite late, and I’m feeling the medicine I took so my allergies would calm down enough for me to sleep starting to kick in (darn anti-histamines).